Did I punt away equity on this shove?

Probably did, but hard to answer without knowing pay jumps.

I see no way to not go broke (or get crippled) unless you somehow have chips going to the river and you fold when SB bets after the A hits.

5th place (when I got KO'd) got 1.4k
4th place got 1.9k
1st place got something like 4.4k

I was 4th in chips here, 5th in chips had around 12bbs I think.

I could see myself calling his 3b and then betting if sb checked the flop and folding to their check raise if that happened, but I'm fairly sure they woulda either led the flop, or jammed if they checked and I bet. But that's just me thinking, I could def have played it wrong.

Not sure how I'd escape this hand with a K on the board until the river. =/

I go broke here, no matter the street.

I think it's very opponent-dependent. If your opponent is a frequent 3-better who might be trying to exploit the ICM pressure of the gap between your stack and BB's, shove is fine. If he's tighter or straightforward and his range is going to be tighter, then I dunno, might even fold as weak as that sounds. I don't think continuing with the hand is bad in any case, but at this stage trying to avoid busting out matters quite a bit.

Agree with the above. Absent any reads on the opponent that he is 3 betting too wide or too narrow, I would probably flat here. KQs plays great in position and, unlike small pairs or suited connectors, will get a good flop often enough to justify putting in 20% of your stack preflop.

You're losing it all on this runout regardless. With 30 BBs this is just a cooler. Nice score though!

I will never 4 bet here with KQs and I will never fold to the 3-bet either.

I will call the flop bet too which is usually going to be 250,000 to 350,000.

Its hard to fold to the turn jam though. It would be a pot sized bet but it is also possible that Villain would check the turn because there is no flush draw out there and the straight draws are unlikely and that would be fortunate because after checking back the turn the A comes on the river and we can get away from it. But mostly its going to be a cooler.

This is the exact line I was also thinking after a few hours. Calling the 3b and calling their flop cbet gets me to the river and possibly can fold to the A. Thats assuming they don’t bet the turn either.

I’m just wondering if I would call their cbet on the flop as I could see myself jamming trying to block any Ax type hands that would be in play. Idk.

Jamming the flop actually lets them play perfectly. They will fold hands behind (like AQ/AJs/QQ/JJ/TT) and call with hands that are ahead (like AK/AA/KK).

The problem comes on the turn when they check. Since I check behind the A hits and we give AQ a gift. So be it. I don't really have a problem with jamming the turn if they check after c-betting the flop. But I often check behind to make it look like I missed as well with either AQ or a smaller pair so that they may feel free to bet the river with a worse hand than we have (could be a value bet or bluff)

If the river isn't an A and they check you get to make a smallish value bet and they will likely call with QQ/JJ and sometimes TT.

A good question to think about is, what do you do if you flat pre, flat the flop, and he bets the turn again? How would bet sizing affect those decisions?

If I did the math right, a flat call of the 3-bet would leave 750k in the pot, so the flop bet is probably going to be even smaller, between the 3-bet pot and the ICM effects of the final table. (And, in this case, because he can probably go for value on three streets with his actual holding.)

Thanks, this makes sense too.

The more I think about it, I def puked this hand. If I'm being honest with myself, in the moment I probably still go broke here either by raising the flop if he cbets, or I bet the turn if they check the turn... both of which are probably the wrong play. If I somehow got away from the hand Id just be left with a short stack which I was trying to avoid... Just thinking of my self in the moment.

But I def realize the jam preflop def isn't the right play, and I had position too so I had opportunity to get away from this.

Part of me is annoyed but also encouraged to just get back to another FT lol.

edit: I should also be adjusting my bet sizes in this stage of the tourney. 1/4 pot bets work just as well as 1/2 pot bets, which would have allowed me to get away from this hand.

I don't think you should be raising a flop c-bet here. I think doing so would be committing yourself and increasing your risk of ruin (again, very hard to get worse to call or better to fold), but you also don't really have to worry about any cards besides an ace (and I guess the outside possibility he 3-bet a pair under queens and hits a set).

I think the decision becomes very interesting on the turn depending on his bet sizing, if he barrels again. If he checks, I'm not sure what's correct,. M my instinct is that betting is OK, but you probably have to fold to a check-shove given the rainbow board and the lack of natural bluffs here (if we're assuming his range is solid and he's not showing up with much 8x outside of 88), since it should never be a value hand you beat.

Things I like to remind myself when playing tournaments:

You voluntarily give up your positional advantage by gii preflop.

You give up to your positional advantage when you pot commit yourself.

You give up your ability to survive horrible run outs when you gii on earlier streets (especially with no fold equity).

Survival can be more important than chip gathering.

Against lots of players, this is just a cooler once the flop hits. Unlucky OP, nice score though.

Folding to the 3b pre is an exploitative fold, but one that we can make against villains with no 3b bluffs and tightish value 3b ranges. There are plenty of those types of players at final tables at these stakes. Just need some info to be able to do it. We can also do this a bit more as well given the disparity between our stack (30bbs) and the next stack (12bbs). Our equity vs these types of players:

99+, AQs+, AQo+ = 32.8% eq
TT+, AQs+, AQo+ = 30.9% eq
TT+, AKs, AKo = 31.8% eq

Perhaps these ranges are too nitty given that we're short-handed. Regardless, 4b jamming pre against those players sucks ofc, so if we have reasonable info, we can just fold. I would be curious about villain's 3b sizing previously.

I can certainly see an argument for flatting against all players, but I like the fold if we have decent info that their 3b range is too narrow.

Standard reply:

Post reads on opponents
Don't post results.

Good post.

But I don't know how I find this fold with top pair/second best kicker, 12bbs in pot and in position. I'm calling a bet or betting flop.

I think he was saying find the fold pre (if the opponent is a nit).

It's worth mentioning that from the SB, many good players 3 bet their entire continue range, so we should be dominating a lot of stuff that he 3 bets here, which is really important. As the above posters said, a read on the opponent is incredibly important, as some players don't know how to play properly from the SB and flat a bunch of stuff.

If villain 3 bet from BB, I'd be more inclined to fold here as it's less often suited connectors. But unless we have seen him 3 bet way too low of a frequency, I'm not getting away preflop (or postflop for that matter).

Curious can you explain your reasoning behind the difference of SB v BB 3bet range? I would think SB would have a smaller range with BB still to act behind them, and BB would have a wider range as they're isolated vs me/hero. (Note: I'm learning a lot about GTO so I may be totally wrong on my thought process. Love to learn more.)

There are many reasons why a SB needs to 3-bet more than a BB.

Part of the problem for SB is that they will be OOP against at least 1 player. Knocking out the BB means it will be at most 1 player.

As the BB I will often just call with hands that I would raise (if played) from the SB. The reasons are many but among them: it keeps the pot smaller OOP, I prefer 3-betting marginal hands in position (like CO or BTN), we are getting the right price to call given our equity, pot odds, and implied odds, it keeps our overall range wider (like with AQ or AK if we have to expose at showdown it looks like we don't 3-bet with them which isn't true just in this spot this time).

It also matters the position of the opening pre-flop raiser. If they are EP I prefer as BB to call more. If they are LP it is much more profitable to 3-bet. And MP it depends on the range of the player.

Good post as well. I took out a paragraph about preflop because of typos and did not get back to it in time.

Even if the 4 bet shove was a mistake with hindsight, as a 2nd short stack with the shortest stack in the bb, I am "always" raising kq when folded to me in CO and I am "always" calling SB 3 bet given its sizing. I will never give the short stack a free look at a flop when shorthanded at ft.

9 buyins difference b/t 4 & 5 may actually create some icm pressure but, unless the data exists to label the SB a complete nit, IDK how I don't get to the flop given the action.

To the above I would add that if the BB is a cognizant player, they will often squeeze from the BB, putting us in a horrible situation. Good players will do this all the time, especially if the open comes from late position.

Now, if we know the BB does not know how to 3 bet and will either call or fold, we can consider calling some hands from the SB that play well multiway. If I am at a table of nit regs, I will sometimes call from the SB, but at a table of good players it's nearly always 3 bet or fold.