Rating of players for Staking
The investing in to a poker player for stake in a particular tournament is becoming bigger and bigger.
There is a need of Poker Player Rating for investing purpose is needed to guide investors expectations.
IMHO these are some of the guiding criteria.
1, Players Honesty :
*There are many instances where players sells more than 100%.
* Sometimes refuses to pay ( I can remember atleast 2 players from Florida had bad reputation.
2, Reporting:
There are some tournaments where there is no live coverage and it’s impossible to get updates. ( In those instances some good players reports their progress on tweeter (X) or any other way. Many players completely ignores.
3, Multiple Flights & Multiple Bullets:
There are many tournaments with multiple starting days and multiple rebuys.
Many good players let their investors know if they were knocked out and they are on 2 nd or 3rd bullets etc.
There may be other information to make staking more trustable experience.
If you have any suggestions please share.
Thx
I have bought many time staking from Ms. Victoria Livschitz.
She informed me that she don’t like idea of posting updates during the event and she don’t enjoy. I understand that .
I will stop buying her staking.
I understand why players sell their staking when they play many events. For example you will see regularly staking of Cherish Andrews, Allen Kessler, JonathanLittle, Chris Tryba etc.
They all are good players and plays tons of events. No player is going to win all the events they play . They understand this and they sell 10-20% of their stake to hedge against the losses. All the players I mentioned above take time and inform their staker what is going on during the events.
So if someone is interested in selling their stake (hedging) but don’t like to take a minute or to inform their investor what is going on !
It’s their choice but as an investor I will avoid them .
allen kessler is down lifetime would not be surprised at all if tiffany michelle and jonathan little are as well
10% of all american households are millionaires
there's a lot more money out there than you could possibly imagine poker is a big draw for the idle rich
Would love to see where you come up with the thought of Jonathan Little being a losing tournament player. It is basically impossible to actually know the outflow for anyone other than yourself in Tournament buy ins. The wins are public for semi serious events but you can pile up a lot of local $2,000 to $5,000 wins that never see the light of day (OR the cost of buy ins). Personally I had a TERRIBLE WSOP last year but broke even in all tournaments for the year but you'll never know it from my Hendon mob results 😉
You are basically accurate on "Millionaires" as defined by net worth it's +8.% of the population or # estimated (obviously they vary) between 22 to 24 million Americans but a lot of that sits in Real Estate. As to "idle rich" ? I clearly need to move to your neck of the woods.
Would love to see where you come up with the thought of Jonathan Little being a losing tournament player. It is basically impossible to actually know the outflow for anyone other than yourself in Tournament buy ins. The wins are public for semi serious events but you can pile up a lot of local $2,000 to $5,000 wins that never see the light of day (OR the cost of buy ins). Personally I had a TERRIBLE WSOP last year but broke even in all t
I've never seen anything first hand on Little, I just know him because he's mocked constantly both by professionals I know irl and by people on 2p2 who often say his book is trash. Mason even has two entire threads trying to make sense of the nonsense in his last book and people are just in there posting that it's from Little, hence why it doesn't make sense. Garbage in garbage out.
He very clearly makes his living from selling coaching and courses. He may or may not have been a winning player back in the day, but there's no chance he is a winning play now. It's also incredibly common for -EV players to continue playing to maintain their brand. Such as with Negreneneau who needs to play as a spokesperson (he's actually awesome because each year he makes a detailed post about "I cashed 2.3 million but lost money because I had over 4 million in buyins" like that. Daniel needs to play tournies to keep himself in the spotlight to keep earning that sponsorship money. Little much of the same to keep himself relevant and able to sell his services.
It's also incredibly common in the DFS world. You have all these guys who genuinely were profitable back in like 2006 but now the scene is so competitive and advanced that they are now losing players but they continue to grind it out because they need that clout for marketing. If their business nets them 290k a year then they can writeoff -80k in losses as a marketing expense because every so often while losing that 90k they'll have a few nice wins to post as screenshots as proof they got it. Best part is you can track these guys too and literally see these people doing victory laps on Twitter for 20k win are actually down 120k entering that nightly 1k contest trying to finally bink it.
However, like I said, I don't know first hand and only said
would not be surprised at all if tiffany michelle and jonathan little are as well
as for kessler, everyone knows this about him
he has just north of 4 million in total cashes for his entire 20 year career
assuming he was crushing it at a 20% ROI then that's just 40k a year
but it's not profit, he 100% has spent more than that on buyins
here's an article on him from 2010
https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/99...
Long-time poker pro Allen Kessler never had the respect of his peers — but that all seemed to change after the 2010 World Series of Poker.
Kessler, who began competing in the summer series about a decade ago, has consistently been a losing player at the WSOP.
Literally says he's been a losing player for a decade - at a time when poker was in its absolute heyday and was the easiest it ever was
has one good WSOP and suddenly
“A lot of people don’t respect my game,” Kessler said. “They say I play too tight, and if I am in a hand in no-limit hold’em I have kings or aces. This summer has gave me a lot of respect from my peers. People criticize me all the time, and this year everywhere I go now it’s different. I was just in London, thousands of miles from home, and complete strangers would walk up to me and say congratulations. After all these years of playing I’m starting to get recognition. It feels good.”
but they still remind you that he lost 200k the year before
The success this past summer was especially crucial for Kessler after a disastrous 2009 campaign. Kessler didn’t cash in a single WSOP event in 2009 out of the roughly 20 he entered — resulting in a loss of more than $200,000 from buy-ins. Fellow players were wondering how he could keep playing, Kessler said.
How does he do it though?
Kessler’s older sister, who owns numerous businesses and is a multimillionaire, provided a flexible work situation that allowed for extended poker trips. It wasn’t long after Kessler started working out of his sister’s house that he made his first trip to Las Vegas for a poker tournament.
like i said, even if the idle rich is just 0.1% of the population, that's hundreds of thousands of people and many choose poker
people need meaning in life, if every day you sit down on a picturesque beach with a cocktail in hand then it's no longer special
they also don't want to have something that's not embarassing when they asked what they do
so they buy a minor league hockey team, open an antique shop, become an angel investor, open a baseball memorabilia shop, or travel and play poker tournaments
if you go certain schools or live in certain areas, you'll bump into these people all the time
Well there is always the chance my personal results with Little are skewed but I book tiny % of his action regularly (every time he offers them) since the end of the 2023 WSOP and with the largest single investment about $50 I'm up a net $900 on his play. He doesn't grind the circuit so probably 35 events during that time that he actually played. I pretty much do the same with Josh Ariel and he has been outstanding in PLO. So you might temper your opinion of Little as a net -EV player.
sample size!?
Could be a statistical aberration of course
As I stated 35 events since August 2023. Every opportunity Little offered that he subsequently played. More were actually purchased but on occasion he like Josh A choose not to play or the 2nd bullet wasnt required. Might have missed some offerings because they were sold out.
Well there is always the chance my personal results with Little are skewed but I book tiny % of his action regularly (every time he offers them) since the end of the 2023 WSOP and with the largest single investment about $50 I'm up a net $900 on his play. He doesn't grind the circuit so probably 35 events during that time that he actually played. I pretty much do the same with Josh Ariel and he has been outstanding in PLO. So you might tem
I agree with RealMcCoy . It may be correct for 95-99% players that overall they may not be winning players . And there is no way to figure out based on incomplete information available.
But based on available data I think Arieh and Little may be one of those few who are overall winning players.
Here are some states per year .
Little :
Major and Recurring Tournament Statistics
Yearly Statistics from all major events and recurring events.
World
Total $ 8,890,360
2024 $ 805,226
2023 $ 528,844
2022 $ 266,779
2021 $ 231,000
2020 $ 6,500
2019 $ 179,793
2018 $ 180,609
2017 $ 302,482
2016 $ 140,246
2015 $ 375,598
2014 $ 338,468
2013 $ 611,730
2012 $ 185,651
2011 $ 167,090
2010 $ 402,136
2009 $ 201,953
2008 $ 1,393,416
2007 $ 2,523,076
2006 $ 49,763
Josh Arieh:
Statistics from all major events and recurring events.
World
Total $ 12,333,488
2024 $ 15,234
2023 $ 1,704,024
2022 $ 1,382,108
2021 $ 1,104,901
2020 - - - -
2019 $ 817,533
2018 $ 33,206
2017 $ 435,769
2016 $ 35,146
2015 $ 24,412
2014 $ 531,790
2013 $ 184,148
2012 $ 43,034
2011 $ 186,805
2010 $ 132,693
2009 $ 1,086,003
2008 $ 178,030
2007 $ 193,123
2006 $ 561,269
2005 $ 394,089
2004 $ 2,802,170
2003 $ 98,024
2002 $ 3,840
2001 $ 5,826
2000 $ 177,511
1999 $ 202,800
I see many players sells multiple bullets but don’t even play or show up for the event.
I understand they have their reasoning for skip.
They don’t care if your $50 or $100 tied up as for them it’s just nothing.
There is no contact for them and staking site will say “ we are waiting for the players to instruct us to refund “
If you have face same situation please report.
As our intention is to make staking fun and fair.
I think sellers must disclose their intentions of playing or in which situation they might not play the event !
Very shocking !
After I posted above post , I got a phone call from a poker player I met at WSOP Las Vegas 4 years ago . And since we talk time to time .( He is a local Las Vegas guy )
As per him there are some shady poker players sells their staking on popular staking site ( Poker Stake, Stake King , 2+2 etc or privately sold) , pre register and don’t show up for the event in time. After the registration level is over. They will get refund as they never sat at the table. And pocketed the stake $$ they sold .
I wasn’t sure how they can get away with it .
I asked my friend “ but in order to claim the stake $$ they have to show the buying receipt? “
My friend said they have copy of the receipt on their phone. They just have to submit copy through their phone . Every time $50 to $200-$300 in their pocket!!
My friend told me he knows couple of players did it ( man and woman both).
I ask for the name but he said “he don’t want involve in to it just wanted to inform me of risk “
I don’t know how true is this or how common it is .
I think I should be careful and only invest in Top of the Top and Most respectable players only !!
Because I don’t think staking site has access to tournament cashiers to figure out which buying were refunded or canceled.
super interesting, not a member of the tourney circuit, I had no idea you could reg and then get refunded if you didn't show up on time
Thx for your opinion. I think I trust Poker Stake ( Josh Arieh ) system.
I was told that they checked every seller’s tournament entry tickets (buy-in receipts) before they pay out. And I believe it as I consider it’s words from Mr. Arieh and he is not going to risk his reputation for anyone and any amount.
This is my opinion.
My questions were for sellers. I come to conclusion that if everyone starts asking for updates during the tournam
After giving much thought and current thinking expressed by other investors.
I realize that paying anyone more than 10% m/u is not profitable at all. Short term or long term.
I think for most sellers 0% to 10% is max any investor can justify.
I realize many regular tournaments grinder offers to sale 15 to 20 tournaments staking every month with 15 to 20% m/u. Lately I see majority of their staking are not sold !!
Unless they will come down to 0 to 10% range , they might see future staking selling getting harder & harder.
Even with 10% m/u I don’t see investor are ready to jump in unless with great resume like DNEG, Josh Arieh , Jonathan Little etc
I will add following players in the list: Galen Hall, David Williams, Roland Israelashvili ( Good player/person but no contact on social media).
For example I will put as per my experience with them :
A+: Josh Arieh, Daniel Negreanu , Allen Kessler , JonathanLittle , Jeremy Ausmus, David Williams,Galen Hall,
etc
A : Tiffany Michelle, Elanit Hasas, Roland Israelashvilli ( No social Media contact), Victoria Livschitz ,
B:
B-: Chris Conrad (No contacts or response )
C:
D:
Like I said, chainsaw is well tracked, there’s a dedicated Twitter account that does it
I understand the win figures. I don’t get it how someone can comes up with tournaments buyins for any players unless Allen has volunteered and provide them.
But few things are sure:
1, Allen is grinder and plays almost every tournament and series he can.
2, lately his winings are not impressive.
3, I only follow one site Pokerstake.com , and see lately many of his offerings go unsold.
4, Allen doesn’t adjust his M/U according to his recent performance. Until he does that his staking will receive lackluster response.
5, Normally Allen asks for 20% M/U which is the top level demand .
I personally like him as a Poker Player and as a person. I hope he adjust his M/U and start getting better results.
Here is winning record as per Hendon Mob:
2024..$ 30,371
2023..$ 209,048
2022..$ 195,675
2021..$ 56,899
2020..$ 10,430
2019..$ 173,435
2018..$ 187,506
2017..$ 194,866
2016..$ 94,678
2015..$ 134,642
2014..$ 381,467
2013..$ 188,530
2012..$ 154,635
2011..$ 372,681
2010..$ 568,240
2009..$ 130,164
2008..$ 206,861
2007..$ 366,397
2006..$ 328,283
2005..$ 333,933
2004..$ 42,828
2003..$ 7,635
2002..$ 1,640
2001..$ 5,710
IMHO , his 2005 to 2019 results were ok for a player who plays many many tournaments.
Good but not great to be a TOP Winning Player.
river, will you stake me?
