Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Speaking of Kennedy and Vietnam though, an overlooked element in Western policy in the ME and something that the non-sectarian alliance of Hamas and the Houthi and Iran point to is that a lot of it is about communism, socialism and imperialism. The Iranian revolution was not just about religion.
Tiktok army strikes again. So very on brand for that country.
I love how Victor is freaking out over a safe in Gaza, when Iran just indiscriminately attacked 3 different countries at once, killing a bunch of civilians, including children, and he couldn't care less.
Always good to remember most of the people criticizing Israel have no actual first principle interests in human lives thousands of miles away. There is always ulterior motives, very often sinister.
I know this time it was Iran wantonly bombing Kurds and killing children, but it is actually pretty eye opening the parallels of how Turks, Arabs and Persians have pretty much taken turns colonizing, ethnic cleansing and bombing Kurds in their native lands for decades, and all the people outraged over "(((Zionist))) colonization" couldn't care less.
Again, ulterior motives. No first principle concerns over "colonizers" or "ethnic cleansing" at all, especially if they perceive it is their tribe doing the oppressing.
We've been over this.
The Israeli LEFT was in power for ages, and had as its main goal to solve this issue. This was the Rabin dream. They put together the best shot at it. The second Intifada was all it got them, and the Israeli left died in flames. And it died logically, the Israeli people felt completely taken advantage of. The goods they were sold were totally fraudulent as it relates to land for peace. THAT is what built the walls Micr
The psychological effects on the population is worth considering as well. The Wikipedia article on the Palestinian rocket attacks has a good section on it under "Psychological":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinia...
Spoiler
In 2008, Natal, the Israel Center for Victims of Terror and War, conducted a study on the city of Sderot based on representative sampling. The study found that between 75 percent and 94 percent of Sderot children aged 4–18 exhibited symptoms of post-traumatic stress. 28 percent of adults and 30 percent of children had post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The co-director of the study emphasized the distinction between post-traumatic stress symptoms, such as problems sleeping and concentrating, and PTSD itself, which can interfere seriously with daily life.[148][227]
An American Psychiatric Association study published in 2010, headed by Professor Yair Bar-Haim of Tel Aviv University, found that incidence rate for post-traumatic symptoms among Israeli civilians was correlated with proximity to the Gaza Strip. Civilians who lived in areas where rockets frequently exploded, and where there was less warning time in advance of strikes, had a higher chance of developing post-traumatic symptoms than those living far enough from Gaza to have one minute or more in which to seek shelter after rockets were launched. The study also found that life under rocket fire sometimes led to cognitive disengagement from threat. Cognitive disengagement was positively correlated with the likelihood of developing pathologies such as post-traumatic stress disorder and depression.[228]
During the Gaza War, when rockets were falling on the city of Ashdod, the municipality opened a treatment centre for those with shell shock.[229]
According to a 2009 Amnesty International report,
Scores [of rockets] have struck homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles in and around towns and villages in southern Israel. It is purely by chance that in most cases such strikes have not caused death or injury, and the lethal potential of such projectiles should not be underestimated. Above all, the constant threat of impending rocket attacks has caused fear and disrupted the lives of the growing number of Israelis who live within range of such attacks, reaching up to a million.[28]
Also in 2009, a spokeswoman for the Sderot Hosen Center, which provides psychological support and rehabilitation for the community, reported that attacks had taken a high toll on the mental health of children and adults in and around Sderot.
Children are afraid to sleep on their own, to be on their own, even to go to the toilet alone. They feel that their parents cannot protect them. Bed wetting is a common manifestation of their anxiety and insecurity. Their parents are similarly anxious and frustrated. It is even difficult to speak of PTSD, for as long as the rockets fall the trauma is renewed daily; we are not even in a post-trauma stage.[28]
This article gets into the various other forms of violence inflicted against civilians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinia...
These actions are bound to radicalize even the most moderate populations. This only covers the Israeli side, but both sides share a significant responsibility for the radicalization of the other.
from a Western pov, only Israeli lives matter. case in point the post above this.
12 blocks of Khan Younis wiped out today.
Nasser hospital being bombed and shelled.
all of this precise bombing could stop if Biden wanted to do it. I do wonder if Trump would allow this.
I guess you gave up before the end of the post:
I dont think the Palestinians bear very much responsibility as a captive population living under occupation.
That's a pretty extreme opinion. My conclusion which says both sides share responsibility is pretty much the opposite of how you chose to summarize my post. Meanwhile after your post which misrepresented what I said, you posted something which could far more accurately be described as this:
I love how Victor is freaking out over a safe in Gaza, when Iran just indiscriminately attacked 3 different countries at once, killing a bunch of civilians, including children, and he couldn't care less.
Always good to remember most of the people criticizing Israel have no actual first principle interests in human lives thousands of miles away. There is always ulterior motives, very often sinister.
I don't know if Nour is a troll but the fourth Geneva was pretty much rendered outdated and meaningless after both Vietnam and Sept 11. We just don't live in that world.
I am going to go out on a limb and guess he is very concerned with Israeli human rights violations and uncharitable towards Israel generally; and very indifferent to anything bad going on in the rest of the world. Whether that makes one a trolly or not is probably a matter of perspective.
@rafiki,
The wall is just about the worst thing to happen. Before the walls Jews and Palestinians knew and worked together and were friends to a much much much greater degree than they are now. It was possible to fight against people you knew but not to turn them into dehumanized cartoon versions of people.
Hard to make peace with inhuman cartoon villains.
That's a pretty extreme opinion. My conclusion which says both sides share responsibility is pretty much the opposite of how you chose to summarize my post. Meanwhile after your post which misrepresented what I said, you posted something which could far more accurately be described as this:
why havent you looked up trauma and ptsd in Palestinian or Gazan children? theres actually a lot of evidence and studies even in Western sources.
why did you use the data you found to conclude that Palestinians deserve significant blame? are you aware of the occupation?
do you think the scale of suffering and loss, even before Oct 7, is even remotely close?
I just find it weird to come into the thread and talk about PTSD amongst Israelis while Palestinians are being blown to bits. and even prior to Oct 7 it wasnt close. in those times, Palestinians didnt run to their bomb shelters or deal with sirens. they just got blown up. oh, and they also dealt with the sound of drones literally at all times.
my opinion is not extreme when you look at the facts. how much responsibility does a captive population under extreme oppression and embargo bear? how much responsibility did slaves bear when they revolted? or concentration camp victims?
I don't know if Nour is a troll but the fourth Geneva was pretty much rendered outdated and meaningless after both Vietnam and Sept 11. We just don't live in that world.
you can scroll her twitter. most of her family has been murdered in the last few months. mostly kids and health care professionals.
she posts a lot of graphic stuff so you probably should not scroll it if that will impact your ability to see Palestinians as lesser people like most here do. on the flip, many here would enjoy watching their suffering.
Well, you are a minority that has shown interest in this situation. But it is interesting how the majority of people (especially Muslim Arab people) that are so outraged against Israeli treatment of Palestianians are so indifferent (at best) to their own treatment of Kurds, Druze, Christian Arabs, black East Africans, etc. (on top of their long history as colonizers, oppressors, ethnic cleansers, genociders, etc. etc.) with zero self awareness or self reflection.
And it really is wild how the rest of the world, especially the progressive West, just kind of goes along with this with zero self awareness themselves. I guess it really is just all about the oil. The peoples who live on the oil, and are willing to use it as a weapon to have their interests amplified, are given special accommodation (which has upsides and downsides obviously).
@rafiki,
The wall is just about the worst thing to happen. Before the walls Jews and Palestinians knew and worked together and were friends to a much much much greater degree than they are now. It was possible to fight against people you knew but not to turn them into dehumanized cartoon versions of people.
Hard to make peace with inhuman cartoon villains.
I think this taps into why I would agree with you in terms for reasons to at least not look towards walls or even borders in general. Sure, there are reasons why they can be beneficial and are needed, but filing people into different entities like its sportsball team has certainly brewed its own type of animosity towards others that wouldn't have necessarily been there otherwise.
why havent you looked up trauma and ptsd in Palestinian or Gazan children? theres actually a lot of evidence and studies even in Western sources.
why did you use the data you found to conclude that Palestinians deserve significant blame? are you aware of the occupation?
do you think the scale of suffering and loss, even before Oct 7, is even remotely close?
I just find it weird to come into the thread and talk about PTSD amongst Israelis whi
I have looked up PTSD and psychological trauma for Palestinians, but when the topic is what caused Israel to move to far right parties it's not directly relevant. So no, it's not weird at all to focus on the topic at hand instead of focusing on a completely different topic.
Your opinion is very extreme. It's also directly at odds with your constantly blaming Ukraine for doing anything negative despite the fact that they are the victims of unprovoked aggression.
Israel did not move to the far right. they have always been far right. read the links that myself and Bill Haywood provided today.
Ukraine was not a captive population under occupation.
incidentally, speaking of Ukraine, I found this funny
Saying that Israel has always been far right misses the point. Even if that were true, the point is that with the way things progressed they will naturally be moving further right and becoming more violent, and that says far more about human nature and the nature of conflict escalation than it does about Israelis.
Saying that Ukrainians are "not a captive population under occupation" and therefore should be scrutinized for every action further proves your bias and double standard, it does not disprove it. You're saying that Gaza deserves to do whatever they want, including Oct 7's terrorist attack, because they were under "occupation", yet Ukraine should have every action scrutinized because they were only the victim of the largest invasion since WW2 by an aggressor who has been trying to occupy them through any means for over a decade, engaging in mass deportations, extreme sexual violence, kidnapping and brainwashing of children, mass executions etc.
If Gaza deserves to do anything, then Ukraine should doubly so. Ultimately neither should be allowed to do whatever they want though and all parties mentioned here: Palestine, Ukraine, Russia, and Israel, should follow Geneva conventions. The actions of none of these parties excuses the breaking of international law.
Good article on comparing Gaza to Warsaw Ghetto. From 2009 but still relevant:
you are putting a lot of words in my mouth. most of what you said is nothing that I have said.
I never said Ukraine doesnt deserve to do anything. they can do what they want. I think its foolish to start a fight with your psychopathic neighbor and then refuse to find peace when you are getting your ass kicked.
the Gazans dont really have a choice. peace has never been an option with their psychopathic neighbor.
the reason that Israel is moving right (well they arent but I whatever I will play) is bc of the occupation. bc they must be more and more brutal to maintain it. and they must expend more and more effort to indoctrinate their population to hate the Palestinians.
theres a reason why South Africa took up this cause. theres a reason why Mandela often spoke of the Palestinians. nowadays no one would say that there was much nuance with the black SA fight against Apartheid. in 100 years this will be viewed the same way. or it will be viewed like Rwanda German or Armenia.
