Correct Ruling? Hand Tabled Across Betting Line
Late night 2/5 game, our storyÂ’s protagonist is some combination of drunk, doesnÂ’t speak English well, possibly some sort of mental abnormality. When he speaks, heÂ’s mumbling quietly, he needed bomb pots explained to him, but easily knew how to post when coming back from the bathroom. Just sort of erratic like sometimes he was present sometimes he wasnÂ’t. His play also erratic, fairly active , showed down a few junky hands, weird sizings.
Protagonist gets to the river heads up with ~$800 in the pot, AQJXX with a diamond flush possible. Protagonist bets $400, villain jams for $500 total, dealer announces all in and puts out the all in button. Protagonist mutters something unintelligible , then tables KT no flush across the betting line, not near the muck. Villain is on other side of the table , says something like “you don’t got a flush I got you beat.” Does not table hand.
Dealer waits maybe 3 seconds then mucks protagonists hand, begins to push pot towards villain, someone points out protagonist has a straight, pause, table sort of erupts into chatter, villain asks dealer to call the floor.
Floor rules that tabling the hand with a forward motion across the line when player hasnÂ’t called the raise is a fold, specifically saying the dealer is trained to muck the hand immediately in this situation.
Correct ruling? Just kind of a crazy situation, where the guy obviously wasnÂ’t folding, some speculated he thought the other players all in was less than his bet. Worst part is he didnÂ’t say a single word in his own defense
Rule 68: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding
Exposing cards with action pending, including the current player when last to act, may result in a penalty but not a dead hand. Any penalty begins at the end of the hand. When folding, cards should be pushed forward low to the table, not deliberately exposed or tossed high (“helicoptered”😉.
Rule 65 .. B .. If a hand is fouled but can be identified, it remains in play despite any cards exposed.
You can reference these Rules all you want .. At this game there is apparently a 'Line' in play that the Floor references in their ruling .. end of story.
Forward motion, exposed or not, intent or not may and can be factors in some rooms but not all. We all know what typically happens in our rooms, but shouldn't be shocked at twists in others.
Other Threads talk about 'How much is enough?', are we to allow more Rule #1 opportunities in this spot because it was 'only' 100 chips more in comparison to the pot?
For this exact OP there's a Line in play and the Floor obv chose to enforce it rather than go the Rule #1 route. Correct Ruling? Yes .. at this game .. end of story. The guy could've shown a Royal and the Floor can still say it's a folded hand if he doesn't choose to go Rule #1. GL
It turns out we still agree on everything, including this... OK we do disagree (I think) on allowing the player to still call once his tabled hand has been put in the muck pile by the dealer.
I would allow the player to fold even though it would have clearly been an angle. I do not consider tossing his cards face up a call. I don't consider it a fold either. It is important to ask him quickly what he is doing. Is he calling? Or is he f
if you agree then this was a fold but since you say forward face up is t a fold you must be in disagreement. In your experience what is a fold? Can a fold b unfolded even though rules that I know of all say a fold is binding?
Remember a “fold” (sic) at showdown is not a fold. It is a discard. Many call it a fold but it is not. Many call it a muck but again it technically isn’t.
Also not a hand is not tabled pre showdown except for all ins. That was s why dealer can and did kill this hand buy mucking it.
If he didn't realize there was a raise and thought he was tabling his hand,
are you suggesting his hand is instantly dead/folded when he turns it up here?
If he grabs it before the dealer can he still call?
Never said turning up a hand makes it a fold. A fold is forward, released and intent to relinquish any claim on the pot.
So no, hand not dead the second turned over. But once it is a fold, the it is dead. Dealer should muck a dead hand immediately. So the question is when does it become a fold. Which is why the floor gets involved. But once floor determines it is a fold, again, it is dead
Can he still call? Depends on if it was a fold or a misunderstanding. Again, that is a floor decision.
The other aspect not discussed is that player responsible to protect their hand. That is in this case tossing cards into middle of t@ble is not how you should table a hand. Yes we all do it at times but choosing to give control of your hand puts you at the mercy of others. And this is another data point floor will consider.
if you agree then this was a fold but since you say forward face up is t a fold you must be in disagreement. In your experience what is a fold? Can a fold b unfolded even though rules that I know of all say a fold is binding?
When somebody says the word "fold" then it is always a fold.
When somebody is facing a bet and mucks their hand forward face down I consider it a fold. I have seen rulings where a person did that and then retrieved their hand before the dealer could and it was ruled not a fold. Mostly though when it is ruled on by a Floor it is considered a fold.
When somebody tosses their hand forward face up when facing a bet I think it is likely a fold. But if the player says "I am calling" after they do it usually is ruled a call. I mentioned before that I have seen more than once where the betting player mucked their hand and the dealer put it in the muck pile and then the player who tossed their cards face up says they were calling. The ruling each time has been the face up hand wins.
Mostly in every casino I have played in, the Dealer hesitates and then asks the player if he is calling or folding. Most of the time the player says they are folding. There have been times where a Dealer has turned the hand over and put it in the muck pile and the player has said "I never folded!" and was allowed to have their hand retrieved and call.
There have been times when it is obvious that the player has turned their hand over in an attempt to get a read on the bettor. In these cases I have seen both calls and folds.
I think this is a gray area and it is not obvious whether the player is actually folding or not. In this casino I doubt they actually have a rule that would call this a fold. Because the Dealer hesitated.
Remember a “fold” (sic) at showdown is not a fold. It is a discard. Many call it a fold but it is not. Many call it a muck but again it technically isn’t.
To me when a player throws their hand forward at showdown facedown it is a muck. The hand isn't dead though until the dealer puts it in the muck pile. And the player can pull it back and turn it over at any time.
Also not a hand is not tabled pre showdown except for all ins. That was s why dealer can and did kill this hand buy mucking it.
This is true in tournaments but not cash games. At Foxwoods they don't have a rule that says you can't turn your hand over before showdown if you are heads up.
So in this case that wouldn't be why the dealer should have killed this hand. Unless there is a rule in the room where you are not allowed to show your hand before showdown when you are heads up in which case it would be considered dead. I have never played in a room where that was the case.
The dealer correctly killed the hand because it was released/tossed FORWARD, not simply turned over.
In most well run rooms, the dealer will treat this as a fold and muck the hand...
...except if as the player is releasing/tossing he says "I call".
But it is not what is described in the OP.
I'm not going to begrudge a dealer that does this, and they're certainly well within their rights, but it doesn't take much effort to just ask if the player is folding, and also doesn't open up to any angles as long as you ask right away. But again I think technically the player just releasing their hand with action pending means they are no longer protecting their hand anyway so for sure if you fold it you're not wrong.
The biggest problem I have with this thread is the old theoretical argument versus reality. As a dealer I occasionally see a hand turned over facing a bet, but I cannot be certain the player did not say "call". Between a slot machine going nuts 20 feet away from the table, a craps table 75 feet away filled with yelling gamblers, two players at the table arguing rather loudly over what the proper odds should be in whatever sporting event is coming up, poker tables can be really loud places. Throw in the fact that many players speak as though they are in a library and afraid of getting yelled at, it can be really hard to hear some players.
So in this situation when a player does something vague (such as exposing and tossing their cards forward when facing a bet), it is imperative that the dealer stop the action as much as they can and clarify the action. The dealer should hold their hands up and stop the betting player from doing anything and quickly ask the showing player what they are intending to do.
For those who say the hand should be quickly mucked, just realize that there are lots of situations where the showing player said "call' and showed their cards but it was impossible to hear.
In this situation there is a huge difference between a decent dealer and a not so decent dealer. A decent dealer sees that there is likely confusion and stops everyone and clarifies the action.
