Which of these rake setups in the best?

What about high hand bonus, royal flush bonus, and bad beat bonus?

This must be accounted for to make a decision

OK I AM HIJACKING THIS THREAD I JUST DECIDED "pulls out a gun"

Which is better?

1. $1/2 lower rake - max rake 10% $5
(each orbit 33 cents per hand 9 seated $3 min pot)
2. $2-1-2 higher rake and bad beat bonus - max rake 10% $6
(each orbit 63 cents per hand 8 seated $5 min pot)

Setting aside C's time rake, I feel like whichever game's rake takes the lowest amount (in dollars) out of the pot is the best game, so D>B>A.

Casino C's time rake would seem best if we're pulling more than $14/hour out of the other games after their rake, but I'm too tired at the moment for brain to figure out if that's right, so I could be wrong.

What do I win if I'm right?

Stack sizes also matter when looking at this. A 1/2 game with 10% rake, max $10 and stack sizes around $100 will be less profitable then a 1/2 game with 10% rake, max $10 and stack sizes around $200. In the second game you will have more hands bigger then the max rake, which lowers the effective rake on winnings.
How good the players are also matters. Casino B might actually be more profitable then Casino D if it pulls in more bad players.

Casino A:
Both setups are expensive but setup 1 is better. Setup 2 has the problem that the BBJ will be taken out of even small limped pots at 2/5.

Casino B:
Both are reasonable just because the caps are are lower. Setup 2 is better because 2/5 will go way over the cap more often.

Casino C:
Probably the best deal. The time rake is high enough that you will want to play 2/5 rather then 1/3 just because $14 is only 3 BB at 2/5 and it's 5 at 1/3.

Casino D:
Second best deal. Since the rake is the same across blinds you should play the highest blind level that your winning at.

Lets start off with Casino A is unplayable. Also, time rake is by a mile the best deal ignoring BBJ. Estimation is ~32 hands per hour, 8 handed is 4 hands you get raked per hour so even at $6 youre looking at $24/hr instead of $14.

BBj take isnt even necessarily EV-, its depending on the promos they are running. My local casino (MGM NH) takes $5 and $2/hand for promos, and runs a promo thats $500 lucky table drawing, so with aboit 20 tables running, thats $25/hr of EV. With about 32 hands/hr split 8 ways, youre paying $8/hr in BBJ and netting $17/hr. Howe er at other times they run no promo at all and its essentially a $7 straight rake.

So id go C > (B and D depend on what promo is running) > quitting poker > A

I used to play in a socialist european country where it was only 1/3€ (no one wanted 2/5), and the rake was 10% to 15€. one-five. Nothing free and no promotions. Scan ID everytime you entered the casino as well.

So yea... I've seen some $h!t.

Yes, the BBJ jackpot is a factor and it's necessary to figure out how that affects the rake (because there is of course a chance that you can win the BBJ too - but overall I believe that paying money towards the BBJ is negative EV and one should opt out of doing so if possible. For example - BBJ at my local place is $500k and they take a dollar for it in every hand that is over $20. The odds of winning it are about two million to one - quad eights has to lose - which means that they take out approximately $2,000,000 before they pay back $500,000 - so three quarters of the BBJ money taken is never paid back).

I'm not sure I understand your math with the second part of your post - what is $2-1-2 and why are people getting raked 33/66 cents per hand; how do you come to that conclusion?

I know casino A, they have the bbj and high hands, you should be getting back 95% of that in the long run (they take a service fee of 5%) obviously its still a lottery.

As per your question, the answer is Casino C and its not close.

Personally, I think the best way to compare the rake structure (and get a good idea, but not 100% accurate) is in big blinds taken out of the pot, which is quite simple to do for casinos A,B and D:

Casino A:

$1/$2: 10% up to $10, and $2 for BBJ once pot gets to $20 = capped at 6 big blinds once the pot is over $20.
$2/$5: 5% up to $16, and $2 for BBJ once pot gets to $20 = capped at 3.6 big blinds once the pot is over $20.

Casino B:

$1/$3: 10% up to $6, and $2 for BBJ once pot gets to $20 = capped at 2.66 big blinds once the pot is over $20.
$2/$5: 10% up to $7, and $2 for BBJ once pot gets to $20 = capped at 1.8 big blinds once the pot is over $20.

Casino D:

$1/$3: 10% up to $7 = capped at 2.33 big blinds.
$3/$5: 10% up to $7 = capped at 1.28 big blinds.
$5/$10: 10% up to $7 = capped at 0.7 big blinds.

It gets a little more complicated for Casino C with its $14/hour rake at both $1/3 and $2/$5. One way to look at it is that if there is a full 9-handed table, then the rake will be $126 per hour. I wonder if anyone out there knows approximately how much rake per hour is normal in $1/$3 and $2/$5 games, and also what the average rake per pot might be? Casino B above is my regular place, and we usually get about 25 hands an hour there. I'd guess that the average rake per pot is perhaps $5 in $1/$3 and $6 in $2/$5, which would work out to $125 and $150 respectively per hour. However, there are also other things to consider - for example, tight players suffer more as a result of hourly rake, because of course they are not to obliged to contribute anything to the pot aside from the blinds in a standard rake setup, and therefore they lose the minimum on card-dead days - whereas at casino C they would have paid $140 to fold for ten hours.

Additionally, it would be useful to know what the 'average' sized pot is. Because when you look at the $2/$5 game at Casino A and compare it to the $2/$5 game at Casino B, you can see that at casino A the rake is only 5% of the pot, compared to 10% at casino B (with both also taking $2 for the BBJ). This means that you pay less (or equal) rake at Casino A until the pots get to $160+, which could make it a better option depending on the average pot size at both locations.

Thus far it appears that playing $2/$5 at casino C is the best option.

If you are right you get my tremendous appreciation! And a set of steak knives.

Thanks for the input - yes, agreed that having deeper stacks is definitely beneficial for minimizing rake, and therefore perhaps the max buy-in permitted/expectred average table stack should also be considered when trying to figure out which is the best deal. I agree with your takes on the casinos to play at and the reasons why. Regarding Casino C, how do you think the $14/hour compares with the other casinos for playing $2/$5? Could it realistically be expected that this is significantly lower than the other casinos?

Thanks for the feedback, yeah I think you are right about this and that Casino C is the best option.

Okay - seems we're agreed on that! Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

Assume 0% vpip and just sitting there waiting for bad beat bonus , how much do you pay per hand to see 2 cards:

Palm Beach Kennel Club does $2 on big blind mandatory and is 8 handed, so $2 big blind $1 small blind $2 button...(before straddle)

so $5 in...8 people.... for 1 orbit i pay 62 cents to see each hand

1 casino i pay 33 cents to see 2 cards and the other casino i pay 62.5 cents to see 2 cards. And both cases are $2 blind Texas NLH

this is not a normal thing that people measure, but just my observation as an upcomer, and something that should be factored in.

How it factors in mathwise to giving an edge on decision making I haven't figured out yet but I will keep you updated as I thinktank it.

Sure, so it's the extra blind in the more expensive game that is making the difference in this case.

Casino A also has free booze and free good quality food and is probably the only one on the list that runs 24/7. It also has 20+ tables running on a Tuesday so you can table select easily where I doubt you could even table select at the other 3 options. Its a rare room with a system that fosters growth in their poker room. If casino B and D are also in Canada its highly likely there is only 1 table to play on. I also see the $500 chip on 2/5 tables often at casino A where Ive played in other 2/5's where you barely see any $25 chips on the table.

Question is way more complex than just rake numbers. Playground is great. 😉

No professional grinder is ever going to choose to play at Casino A. It's the worst rake in all of Canada. Grinders can make their own food and bring their own sandwiches; they do not need the casino to provide these things - and most of them do not drink alcohol, either. So it is completely absurd to try and justify high rake through free food and drink. You can table select at most of the casinos I listed - but in any case, the ability to table select doesn't mean much when you stand to lose up to $18 per pot in a $2/$5 game. This rake is close to unbeatable and any serious professional player knows that, and they certainly couldn't care less about a room with 'a system that fosters growth' - on the contrary, the high rake will be the death of that casino, when there are so many better options around. It really doesn't matter if there are $500/$25 chips in play on the $2/$5 game or not, the rake is still the same, and it's criminal - they are fleecing their customers and it's only a matter of time until people come to their senses.

The question really isn't more complex than rake numbers to professional players/grinders.

The pros don't care for themselves but they know these things bring in people. Cheap or free alcoholic drinks are a huge advantage to any decent player because it makes other people play badly.
Can it outweigh the rake structure at Casino A? I don't know, that rake is painful. But don't underestimate the value of food and drinks, it's worth a lot even if you are not going to partake.

Sure, that's a valid point. But given the choice of free food and drink in the casino I play in, or significantly lower rake, I'm of course taking the latter option as it results in significantly greater revenue to me, and there's never any guarantee that some players are going to overly indulge in the free booze and start playing badly as a result. Any casino in a large city is going to attract a large amount of regular bad players, with or without the freebies.

C >>>>>> D > B >>>>>> A

The worst rake in Canada is Toronto at $20 @ 10% and once they get the planned bbj running thats another +2 which is very far away from $18 @ 5%. Its still not great but all the extras I mention help make up for it where Toronto just takes everything and gives you nothing in return. I also havent been into a Canadian casino that lets you bring your own food. Ive gotten in trouble for bringing in my own water bottle before ffs.

Quad already answered your stupidity on free booze. I cant believe you dont understand how that is a huge plus in a poker room.

I also heavily support Casino Niagras timed rake but acting like youre table selecting anything when theres only 2-3 tables of 2/5 running is pretty funny and by the time you get to move the fish are gone and the table you just left is now the softer one.

The 500 v 25 chip comment also went over your head. Stacks are deep if you get to the right table where most other Canada casinos Ive played people hit 200 bb's and freeze up or run away. Again, not saying Playground is perfect but the rake numbers dont come close to telling the full story. Ever play holdem with a PLO player whos waiting for his PLO seat? Ever play cash when half the room is a tournament?

https://www.playground.ca/poker/food-and...

Isnt this food worth $1 or 2 off the rake to you?

Maybe go against the grain and say I guess the game is probably better for 1/3 at casino B. But I'd try them all.

At 2/5 or 3/5 I'd play all the games and see which seems better, maybe lean towards C.

Basically in both cases I'd assume that which other players turn up to play will make a bigger difference to your winrate than the rake, also you thinking free booze isn't worth anything heavily implies you haven't played with drunk gambling people.

Wheres your update for the casinos you were talking about?

Playground has a public 25/50/100 game running all day today.

Its not really public,there must be some super vip its 8am and its still running, wouldn’t be surprised if they’re raking 200$/hand.

Oh I wasnt there just looking at the list online and seeing people on the waitlist where the private games never have a waitlist. Whats the rake like 10/25/50 and higher do you know?

Yes Toronto is the highest rake in Canada - that's true, but Playground is not far behind. The extras at Playground are not sufficient compensation; I can't pay my rent with free food and booze. Last I checked there were 18 tables at Casino Niagara and it's almost always busy with plenty of opportunity to table select and find soft tables (although you are obviously competing with everyone else who wants to table select, same as at the Playground and every other casino).

The 500 vs 25 chip comment is meaningless. If you meant to specify deep stacked games, why didn't you just say that? Chip denominations are not the relevant point. I don't know where you've been playing $2/$5 but in BC the players certainly don't freeze up run/away once they get to 200bbs - a lot of players come to play long, deep-stacked sessions. Yes of course I have played Holdem with PLO players waiting for seats/half the room being in a tournament. What's your point?

No, the food is not worth $1 or $2 off the rake. I can make my own sandwiches at home and bring them with me to games. I can also go to Casino de Montreal and play $2/$5 with the rake capped at $12, instead of $18 at Playground - a 50% increase. This equates to an additional income of perhaps $80 per session, or $400 a week if playing five sessions per week - which as I'm sure you can appreciate can easily be the difference between living well as a grinder and struggling to make ends meet. If your employer offered you an extra $20,800 per year, or free food and booze, which one are you taking?

Everyone I have talked to about Playground says that it is not what it used to be; they are cutting corners, losing money, the atmosphere is dying, the staff are disgruntled etc.