4 betting AAxyzds against people that never fold pre
Hi all,
For a while I have been much more hesitant to 4 bet AA preflop in PLO5, since most of the edge comes from postflop play, and in my games people that start putting money in pre probably fold less than 5% of the time (except maybe if there is a 4 bet and 5 bet and it is back to them).
However, it is completely ridiculous to never 4 bet premium Aces.
Had exactly that kind of hand recently:
AsAhQs7h6d in the SB, 5 handed in general, one player sitting out this hand.
Relatively normal player opened from UTG to 3.5bb, MP was sitting out, BTN 3 bet to 12bb (he was around 50bb, while I and MP had over 150bb).
BTN was complete maniac, could well do this with all sorts of hands, so I thought
1) i do need to 4 bet the very best hands, because if not, why am i playing
2) i might get UTG to fold and be all in HU against someone I might be 60% against
3) even in PLO5, of course less so than PLO, if you are OOP with high equity hands, it is better to reduce SPR
So I 4 bet to 40bb, UTG called, BTN put in his remaining 11.5bb - and both of us called. Side question - why was I not allowed to repot? Is it game / provider dependent? i have the feeling on some apps they let you do that, and i would have been super happy to do so.
Flop comes:
3c7sJc
Here I kind of punted, I think. I just led for pot (all-in). Spr was 0.66, as the pot was 155bb and UTG had 106 left. Thought that backdoor spades counts for something, and only KK has me dead. Without knowing his hand, I also thought it is good I have the 7 for some two pair / trip outs.
UTG showed up with 75432ds in hearts and diamonds, so he flopped bottom two pair and a gutshot straight - so the 6 would not have helped me make a better two pair, as it gives him the straight.
BTN won with KKQT8 as he had clubs and made a flush. A 2 and a 4 on turn and river just gave UTG more pairs to choose from and I ended up losing it all.
My question is, at this SPR, was it really bad to put it in?
Secondly, to exploit players that never ever fold pre and often commit badly post, is it ok to hardly ever 4 bet and just play post and get it in when clearly ahead?
Much appreciated!
9 Replies
AA just loses value in 5 c - in 4c vs top 15% its 65%, 5c 58%. It's also just very hard to play esp if you're OOP and deeper - something like AQ982ds is a lot easier to navigate. I would say you want to push your preflop edge when you can get to a shallow SPR on the flop. I think in 5c you want to 3b wider in position, and play nittier OOP overall -for example if we're 200 bb effective against good players I almost think we shouldn't have a 3b range.
Thank you for the reply, and also nice to see the percentages - even more of a difference than i thought!
I guess i will revert to my previous strategy of hardly ever 3 betting AA, especially OOP.
As played, what about postflop? Was it really a horrible mistake? Not looking at the percentages of course, once the hands got revealed it was clearly a mistake, but against UTG's whole range.
Thank you for the reply, and also nice to see the percentages - even more of a difference than i thought!
I guess i will revert to my previous strategy of hardly ever 3 betting AA, especially OOP.
As played, what about postflop? Was it really a horrible mistake? Not looking at the percentages of course, once the hands got revealed it was clearly a mistake, but against UTG's whole range.
You had like slightly larger than a PSB left? Don't think you can do anything but pot GII - PPT says you're 48% here vs top 15%.
You had like slightly larger than a PSB left? Don't think you can do anything but pot GII - PPT says you're 48% here vs top 15%.
Less than pot, so the pot was 157bb on the flop, and i had 120bb, but it was even less effective,as UTG had like 106bb.
I mean the percentages look terrible because i just happened to be up against 2 pair and a FD with some backdoor stuff.
With the given stacksizes, you could 4bet less than pot, allowing the shortstack to make a qualifing 5bet shove, so that you can get it all in preflop.
Instead of making it 40bb, just make it 30bb (18bb more), then the shorty will nearly always shove 20bb more for his 50bb stack, and be all in preflop.
And if the other deepstack in between calls your 30bb 4bet, it's even better. Now you'll also have him all-in preflop, because you are allowed to re-pot.
And even in worst case scenario, where both opponents just call, you can at least fold some flops with a bigger SPR, if the deep opponent gets it in.
Sometimes i think that MTT players are better 😉
Agree with above. He put in 12 with 38 left so raise by 19 to 31. This lets the player in between know they might have to stack off pre.
As played 40bb is fine and stacking off this flop is fine. Putting in more money with double suited aces is often a good idea, and we hit a lot of flops with either a set, nfd, sometimes oesd or 2 pair or trips.
Hand is wp. Always 4! pre unless you are setting a trap to 5!
If btn is a maniac the raise is even more mandatory. Also UTG is a huge fish, his raise is bad but his call is torching.
Hand is wp. Always 4! pre unless you are setting a trap to 5!
If btn is a maniac the raise is even more mandatory. Also UTG is a huge fish, his raise is bad but his call is torching.
thank you for the input! indeed UTG looks bad in this, i do think he is not that bad, maybe he was just in a gambly mode, or maybe he put both myself and BTN on AA + high cards, which somewhat happened, but still, i think he was not getting proper odds to call.
The swings of PLO5 😀
