ex-President Trump
I assume it's still acceptable to have a Trump thread in a Politics forum?
So this is an obvious lie - basically aimed at low-info Boomers like my religions aunts. I have two questions:
a) Is anyone here who supports Trump bothered by lies like this?
b) Does anyone know what he's even talking about here? Like is there some grain of truth that he's embellishing on bigly?
I keep wondering how you deal with the MAGAs in sheep’s clothing who keep trying to claim they don’t have a choice, how the options are equally terrible, how they’re just asking questions and trying to understand how this is all they’re left with and how MAGA isn’t what they want but just the only option they’re left with
I mean bull****ingshit. You know the optics of the decision you WANT and are trying to gaslight people into thinking you’re smart people who just weren’t left with a choice
Mockery and ostracizing is really the only answer. If you’ve seen the last 8 years and still think trump is the choice, no matter what you pretend this is simply what you wanted all along. Send them to their echo chambers in the worst parts of the Internet where they can find sympathetic voices when they claim the liberals were just too mean to them
If you think you can reach the ins0s or lozens or luckboxes of this world it’s because of your own arrogance and desire for validation to be proven right. Let their nonsense get drowned out into the aether where it belongs
Since 2016, conservatives in the US have been a totally different animal to conservatives in other civilised countries. I would say that Trumpers and the MAGA brigade are dumb af and/or batshit insane. Regular, run of the mill conservatives who are not MAGA turds are fine by me. I might even be considered a mild one.
It's never lost on me that had R's just turned on Trump after Jan 6th, which they seemed to be doing for a hot minute, they would be skating to a beatdown victory in 2024. All they had to do was run a WARM BODY that wasn't a MAGA dipshit. Because the fact is I and many others agree that both party extremists can f off. But MAGA don't work that way, they just want to hate ALL democrats just for the culture war vibes.
R's went the coward's route though(shocking, I know) and bent over for the literal craziest part of their base that used to be marginalized because they were so ****ing batshit crazy.
So in the end, "You get what you ****ing deserve, Murray!"
I really don't understand why "solving poverty once and for all for all human beings, starting domestically" can't be a very powerful source of meaning. That's St. Francis of Assisi level of meaning, but it's actually feasible with current technology (at least in the first world).
I'm on board (apart from the domestic bit) but it's a political aspiration. What's the reason and where's the story to sustian us on the journey and get us to act in purposeful ways.
My take is that the wishes are somewhat pure, but given the preferred tool to achieve them is absolutely not up to the task and is actually the main source of problems (the state), the left is in constant short-circuit with itself and that ends up making people who believe in leftwing ideals be very miserable.
Like when you increase expenses per pupil in public education to almost 20k per year in some states and grades keep deteriorating and quality of education is the worst it has been in many decades... i get why you snap. You either admit your lifelong commitment to improving education is impossible to achieve , OR that the tool you keep using and claiming will solve it (the state, publci schools in this case) is actually the problem not the solution.
Replicate that for welfare causing poverty traps and so on
I'd agree that the constant settling for not as bad and management of the status quo is not up to the task. We need radical systemic change but it's hard, often causes some personal downside. That's why we need the meaningful story.
actually we are discussing an ex-president of the united states of america.
you have no dog in this fight correct?
Aside from the fact that my dad is an american citizen (i am not), and the fact that the security of my country depends on yours, and the global economy of which my country is part of can often depend on the choices made by top american politicians, and the fact that your country has military bases in my country (including 100 atomic bombs), and 20-30 other things related to this, no i don't have "any dog in this fight" i suppose
can't vote right?
It's never lost on me that had R's just turned on Trump after Jan 6th, which they seemed to be doing for a hot minute, they would be skating to a beatdown victory in 2024. All they had to do was run a WARM BODY that wasn't a MAGA dipshit. Because the fact is I and many others agree that both party extremists can f off. But MAGA don't work that way, they just want to hate ALL democrats just for the culture war vibes.
R's went the coward's rou
The party primary process and the lack of compulsory voting is basically why we are where we are
Republican primary voting is a pretty fascinating insight into minority rule. The fringe run the show when they’re the only people coming out
I keep wondering how you deal with the MAGAs in sheep’s clothing who keep trying to claim they don’t have a choice, how the options are equally terrible, how they’re just asking questions and trying to understand how this is all they’re left with and how MAGA isn’t what they want but just the only option they’re left with
I mean bull****ingshit. You know the optics of the decision you WANT and are trying t
I believe Luciom that he is not MAGA FWIW. While I don't agree with a lot of his points, he makes them coherently and intelligibly, and responds to criticism with substantive replies. These are not traits that MAGA chuds tend to possess.
If you think you can reach the ins0s or lozens or Luckboxes of this world it’s because of your own arrogance and desire for validation to be proven right.
The craziest part is Luckbox doesn't vote and Losen is a Canadian, who can't vote. Why in the world you bother fighting to change their minds is beyond me. Let them keep posting their crappy arguments and evidence, and worry about how the lurkers view them. Don't give a second thought or worrying about changing Luckboxs or Losens mind, its futile.
It's never lost on me that had R's just turned on Trump after Jan 6th, which they seemed to be doing for a hot minute, they would be skating to a beatdown victory in 2024. All they had to do was run a WARM BODY that wasn't a MAGA dipshit. Because the fact is I and many others agree that both party extremists can f off. But MAGA don't work that way, they just want to hate ALL democrats just for the culture war vibes.
R's went the coward's rou
These things can only happen if a party gets destroyed in elections and loses most power. They can't happen when a party still has significant power. It could happen to Tories in the UK for example. It probably will happen at some point to the french socialists which have been already diminished so much that they almost disappeared.
As long as you can cling to decent amounts of powers, you will keep doing what works in the short term, J curves aren't really something politicians can be expected to take, because you get cancelled personally for the sacrifice and others reap the benefit later on. The incentive structure isn't there.
When there is almost nothing to lose anymore for individual top politicians inside a party, that's when a party can reorganize differently with significant changes.
Moreover in the USA you have this thing called primaries. Primary republican voters are really extremists. Because of how primaries work, Trump has an oversized power in determining who gets the candidacy slot in many races.
You either suicide yourself politically, lose all power, HOPING trump won't be able to commandeer primary voters 2 years later (and that's not a given at all even if republican lose both chambers of congress by wide margins), or you do whatever you need to do to win primaries.
I am not sure what your suggestion would be for "normal" republicans, how do they "turn on Trump"? you mean republican senators should have voted to impeach against their voters will? to never again sit in the senate for most of them? do you realize how big what you ask would be for a career politician?
Or do you have something else in mind? a lot of republicans are defying Trump to this day, see all the talks about the aid to Ukraine & Israel. You see how much it is costing them , and they still try? Mc Connell among them. What else are they supposed to do lol, i don't understand.
I believe Luciom that he is not MAGA FWIW. While I don't agree with a lot of his points, he makes them coherently and intelligibly, and responds to criticism with substantive replies. This is not a trait that MAGA chuds tend to possess.
Keep in mind that he is claimign that anyone that for any reason still ends up voting for trump is "maga".
I think that is kinda the equivalent of some republicans calling a marxist anyone who votes for Biden.
While i can understand where that comes from (for both sides), it's not very useful to understand your enemies.
Keep in mind that he is claimign that anyone that for any reason still ends up voting for trump is "maga".
I think that is kinda the equivalent of some republicans calling a marxist anyone who votes for Biden.
While i can understand where that comes from (for both sides), it's not very useful to understand your enemies.
Anyone who votes for Trump and is intelligent enough to understand what they are voting for, which is a vanishingly small % of overall Trump voters, is clearly willing to sacrifice democracy and geopolitical stability for something else they feel is more important. That "something" would have to be pretty exceptional in order for me to not think that person is straight up evil, fascist to the bone, or just hell-bent on seeing the world burn.
Anyone who votes for Trump and is intelligent enough to understand what they are voting for, which is a vanishingly small % of overall Trump voters, is clearly willing to sacrifice democracy and geopolitical stability for something else they feel is more important. That "something" would have to be pretty exceptional in order for me to not think that person is straight up evil, fascist to the bone, or just hell-bent on seeing the world burn
Bold is wrong and you know that , but whatever.
For geopolitical stability i agree Trump is a much worse choice than Biden.
As to the "will to sacrifice democracy", i ask you like i asked rococo in another occasion which parts of democracy would be sacrificed by electing trump, because the expression is used a lot but really vague. Which antidemocratic things will happen? will laws stop to require congress approval? courts stop working? elected democrats be beaten in congress, arrested without cause? which severe constitutional "rapes" do you envision?
And again, the guy you seem to dislike a lot just worked to disentagle religious affiliation from political leaning, because he presumably cares a lot about claims that religion makes you a better person (i don't, i am an atheist).
This is where you and guys like you lose any chance at seeming to convince someone you are interested in unbiased discussion.
This man uses evangelicals and christians like the rubes that they are, let them all *lay hands on him* for photo-ops, all while most definitely thinking at the time "Man I wish all these creepy god poors would stop touching me."
People who blindly defend him with straight-up lies and made-up truths, like you here, are just irredeemably obtuse and a waste of effort trying to have a discussion with. All they want to do is defend their Cheeto Idol.
Sad!
I keep wondering how you deal with the MAGAs in sheep’s clothing who keep trying to claim they don’t have a choice, how the options are equally terrible, how they’re just asking questions and trying to understand how this is all they’re left with and how MAGA isn’t what they want but just the only option they’re left with
I mean bull****ingshit. You know the optics of the decision you WANT and are trying to gaslight people into thinking you’
This is really the only answer at this point. Well said.
Not really, but I tend to hold a very dim view of the mental acuity of the average person, and the average Trump voter is much, much dumber than that.
For geopolitical stability i agree Trump is a much worse choice than Biden.
As to the "will to sacrifice democracy", i ask you like i asked rococo in another occasion which parts of democracy would be sacrificed by electing trump, because the expression is used a lot but really vague. Which antidemocratic things will happen? will laws stop to require congress approval? courts stop working? elected democrats be beaten in congress, arrested wi
Trump proved during his last term that much of what we've always considered democratic norms were in essence gentlemen's agreements to not engage in certain conduct. We can start a whole derail here how he saw himself as an absolute ruler and did everything he could to make that fantasy a reality, with support from many republicans in the establishment. If he's learnt anything from his last term, it is how to disassemble the checks and balances. He literally idolises "strongmen", i.e. authoritarian dictators, and he wants to be just like them. If he manages to appoint enough lackeys to key positions within government, he might just be able to pull it off.
Vote for Trump in 2024 and you might not need to worry about voting in 2028.
Ugg, Lucion is that guy that answers questions with other questions, with a side of both sides always thrown in, and a sprinkle of straight up lies for effect.
Stay gold, ponyboy.
*I've already given you an example of one of your straight-up lies sprinkled into you both-sidesing, so don't ask for examples.
Not really, but I tend to hold a very dim view of the mental acuity of the average person, and the average Trum voter is much, much dumber than that.
Trump proved during his last term that what we've always considered democratic norms were in essence gentlemen's agreements to not engage in certain conduct. We can start a whole derail here how he saw himself as an absolute ruler and did everything he could to make that fantasy a reality, with
So 2 fairly extreme crisis happened during Trump presidency domestically, the BLM riots and covid, that would have allowed POTUS to wield a lot of executive, emergencial power toward whatever he wants to accomplish in society, and Trump did very very little in both cases, far less than most POTUS would have done.
For covid he actually gave money to private companies that donate to democrats more than to republicans to develop a vaccine, then yes ofc he tried to claim it was "his own" vaccine, but how's that an "absolute ruler"!!!!!
He could have used the defense production act a lot more, he actually bragged of having used it a lot but in reality didn't and the NYT actually claimed it didn't much (!!!!) .
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/22/healt...
That's the literal polar opposite of what ANYONE who wanted to be an "absolutist ruler" would have done.
Some republicans in the establishment actually asked him explicitly to do a lot more (remember Cotton asking for troops to be deployed against the BLM rioters? ) and Trump had to play golf and couldn't be bothered.
How is your bold even vaguely true at all? it's like we experienced completly different reality, Trump governed with far less absolutist desire than most chiefs of government in the west, of both sides, usually do.
Republican primary voting is a pretty fascinating insight into minority rule. The fringe run the show when they’re the only people coming out
This is why states should get out of the business of helping political parties choose their nominee. And also not give any automatic ballot access to a party nominee.
Not really, but I tend to hold a very dim view of the mental acuity of the average person, and the average Trump voter is much, much dumber than that.
Trump proved during his last term that much of what we've always considered democratic norms were in essence gentlemen's agreements to not engage in certain conduct. We can start a whole derail here how he saw himself as an absolute ruler and did everything he could to make that fantasy a real
There's no good outcome.
Trump is disqualified or loses: MAGAs take up arms do the boogaloo thing.
Trump wins: Like you said.
27offsuit is angry because i posted something very well known (and uncontroversial) , the higher incidence of mental illness among self-defined liberal people vs self defined conservative people.
He is angry because i dared use a chart made by a guy he dislikes to show that data, even if the data is objectively and uncontroversially true.
I don't understand anything else of what he wrote but that's probably just a problem on my side with conversational english.
I get he hates anyone who isn't leftwing so i can understand he is just probably venting his personal frustration at me
Trump appointed a lot of unlikeable folks to powerful positions, but most of them called him on his bullshit at some point in time. I think there was just enough sense close to him to put some sort of check on him.
He won't do that again. He will have the worst of the worst in the most powerful positions - like head of fbi and justice department. They won't question him on anything. I don't think throwing political opponents in jail is too much of a stretch. He's already promised it.
Tbh I think it’s even bleaker than this and we’ve just conditioned ourselves to not think there’s a chance of this happening cuz it’s never had to
Trump has two options: get sworn into office of die in prison. The man has proven over and over in his entire life that he has no loyalty to anything but himself. Look at what he was willing to do and push for when the only negative outcome on the horizon was a lack of office, negative image to the brand and maybe some civil trials. If he’s running to avoid prison the only thing worse than trump assuming office might be what he sets off if he doesn’t
Trump appointed a lot of unlikeable folks to powerful positions, but most of them called him on his bullshit at some point in time. I think there was just enough sense close to him to put some sort of check on him.
He won't do that again. He will have the worst of the worst in the most powerful positions - like head of fbi and justice department. They won't question him on anything.
So which kind of actions against democracy do you think could happen? you see courts jailing people because trump tells them so, or the militaries executing orders of that kind?
So 2 fairly extreme crisis happened during Trump presidency domestically, the BLM riots and covid, that would have allowed POTUS to wield a lot of executive, emergencial power toward whatever he wants to accomplish in society, and Trump did very very little in both cases, far less than most POTUS would have done.
For covid he actually gave money to private companies that donate to democrats more than to republicans to develop a vaccine, then
He might not want to actually rule on anything that doesn't pique his interest at the time, but he certainly wants to sit on the throne and wear the crown for perpetuity. That part was obvious both during his term and when he refused to concede his electoral loss and attempted all sorts of underhanded and illegal schemes to retain the presidency, from attempting to get states to fabricate vote counts to inciting his supporters to riot.
If you want a list of all the ways in which Trump subverted democratic norms while in office, I'm sure I could google that for you. Quite a few episodes spring to mind from memory, and I am sure there are many more I forgot or missed, but I have no doubt someone else has put together a handy compilation I could just find online.
You know Hitler was originally democratically elected, right? He then disassembled the democratic institutions brick by brick and assumed absolute power. It can and has been done.
