2024 ELECTION THREAD
The next presidential race will be here soon! Please see current Bovada odds. Thoughts?
I think there are 2 different things. I think we agree 50s nostalgia basically ignores non white people.
For unions leaving Dems, I think you're making a common mistake when it comes to demo mashing election data. My understanding of your claim is something like unions are voting less Dem now than in the past because of perception about their policies on trade and support for labor etc. I think that's wrong because you're not normalizi
It might or might not ignore non whites. I think it's possible to desire that lifestyle for all and to come close to realizing that desire.
There also are some areas where minorities, especially Black people were better off. In tact families are more important the poorer you are. Far lower rates of incarceration, which is one of the worst life outcomes. Far lower rates of obesity.
It's clear imo that we can seek to restore much of this Without bringing back the racism and other intolerance.
idk they've convinced me that in order to bring back prosperity we all need to be more racist
maybe you're right and we can have prosperity without racism, but then again, this is like a modern pascal's wager where it's better to hedge your bet and be racist just in case that's a required condition for prosperity
Also, there are a ton oof countries where there has been prosperity that was shared with the bottom 50-70% without a large racial under class.
Ok? But this obviously does not apply to the US in the 50s and 60s that did have a large racial underclass.
I'm pretty left on a lot of issues, but the idea that prosperity is finite and can only be acquired by taking it from others is one of the more sophomore ideas on the left imo.
Maybe that isn't what is being suggested but it sounds like it. It's strange to see that argument used in favor of neo liberal politicians.
Yeah, I don't think you're actually responding to what is being said, but rather a straw man version no it. If I was doing something like that I could say something like " it's strange to see supposed liberals argue for a return to the highly racist and exclusionary policies of the 50s". But that would be dishonest as you're not saying that.
Nobody is saying that prosperity is finite, but just straight data from the 50s and 60s shows that only white non college educated workers are doing worse now than then and that group also had significantly propped up wages from reduced competition through institutionalized racism and sexism. If you agree with that we can maybe begin a more accurate discussion of the overall unskilled labor market.
you act like the unions only did well by exlcuding blacks, yet black kept showing up to work in the auto industry (and shudder to think even joined the unions) to the point where detroit went from barely any blacks to majority black in just 2-3 decades
it's just lazy to say that union workers did well then due to racism
and yes, this is exactly how i understood you comment as well
that's insane and wholly unfounded - you're just guessing becau
You’re responding to things I never said and giving a generic, boilerplate rant.
I will address one really stupid thing you said though. Of course Black people will want to go after jobs in the auto industry and union jobs. They were the best low-skill jobs available. How does that prove that they weren’t discriminated against? In fact, you would expect that Black people being the ones that are most highly discriminated against when it comes to education at that time would be the type of people that would occupy such jobs disproportionately to their population size.
edit: there is even a whole section about this on the Wikipedia article about the auto industry in the United States during the 1950s. Despite the fact that Black people outnumbered whites in Detroit, they only held 16% of the auto manufacturing jobs. In addition to this, you would expect that Black people had less education, and therefore also didn’t qualify for the higher skilled labor that white people would’ve qualified for.
It might or might not ignore non whites. I think it's possible to desire that lifestyle for all and to come close to realizing that desire.
There also are some areas where minorities, especially Black people were better off. In tact families are more important the poorer you are. Far lower rates of incarceration, which is one of the worst life outcomes. Far lower rates of obesity.
It's clear imo that we can seek to restore much of this W
Too bad there is no way of knowing how black people feel about the 50s....
But maybe your inability/difficulty to see meaningful differences between democrats and republicans is related to your inability to see if black people were better off in the 50s or now?
Ok? But this obviously does not apply to the US in the 50s and 60s that did have a large racial underclass.
Yeah, I don't think you're actually responding to what is being said, but rather a straw man version no it. If I was doing something like that I could say something like " it's strange to see supposed liberals argue for a return to the highly racist and exclusionary policies of the 50s". But that would be dishonest as you're not s
It seems like this is going far afield and I know it's getting into areas I don't know about.
I guess my central point is that the middle class lifestyle enjoyed by whites was not contingent upon racism against blacks. And it needn't be today.
Certainly, individual whites benefited from racial favoritism. But that is partly offset by the losses of keeping Blacks oppressed. If prosperity is not finite, whites benefit from black prosperity. More customers, more innovations etc. Like, think of all the money generated by black musicians. That's good for the whole country, I suspect.
If we agree that prosperity can be created and widely shared without a racial under class, I don't think there is much disagreement.
I don't really know anything about the nuances of exactly how it went down in the 50s. But if we agree on the above, then I'm not sure what the issue is.
Too bad there is no way of knowing how black people feel about the 50s....
But maybe your inability/difficulty to see meaningful differences between democrats and republicans is related to your inability to see if black people were better off in the 50s or now?
See, you try to be reasonable and get this.
Blindly support Dems no matter what or you are racist. Guess Cornell West and Adolf Reed are racist against black people.
Things like mass incarceration and crappy HC hurt whites the least and blacks the most.
I didn't say blacks were better of in the 50s. I said there are particular areas where they are, which is true. Maybe we can bring back the goo's without the bad.
The statement bolded simply means you could value the middle class lifestyle of the 50s and ignore the racism, or you could do so and acknowledge the racism.
I think a tax on unrealized capital gains is stupid and is not going to happen because it will not gain support. I think Kamala made a mistake by proposing an unrealized capital gains tax. I think going after price gouging is performative because that’s not the cause of inflation according to most economists. I think canceling student debt was a policy that should have been done through congress and not executive order. I think Biden was too slow to rescind title 8 deportation and go back to the old way of deporting. I think that Kamala Harris should probably be doing more interviews and should have done interviews sooner.
I’m sure excriture has his own criticisms of the democrats that simply are not relevant at all for most conversations about whether or not you should choose the party that you disagree with on certain issues versus the party that nominated a guy that tried to steal an election and lied about it being rigged. I also think that there’s only two candidates that can possibly win in 2024 and voting for someone that is not one of those two candidates is probably a silly decision in general, and encouraging others to do the same is probably immoral in such a consequential election.
This isn’t about caping for the democratic party, and to cast it that way is just missing the point.
Too bad there is no way of knowing how black people feel about the 50s....
But maybe your inability/difficulty to see meaningful differences between democrats and republicans is related to your inability to see if black people were better off in the 50s or now?
There are definitely areas where the black (and white) population was better off in the 50s. That's not an endorsement of Jim Crow laws. A lot of things have happened in the past 60-70 years besides the Civil Rights Act and a shift away from widespread overt racism. It depends on what you're measuring.
I'll be the first to admit that Sowell doesn't incorporate or acknowledge some significant factors, but he still makes interesting points.
Ain’t nobody gonna watch some 52 minute Thomas Sowell yap, can you name 1-2 issues where Black people were better off? My guess is he’s going to say maybe marriage rates? Can’t think of anything else. If he is going to say that I think it’s really stupid to not double the income minimums for welfare recipients if there is a married couple which I think is how Sowell is caching out the way dems supposedly contributed to Black single motherhood. So if it’s that issue then sure, but I also think that it is weird that as black single motherhood has gone up, black violent crime rate has actually been going down because it tends to be associated with other factors and hard to disaggregate from just being lower socioeconomic status in general. If you just ignore all the stuff that happened since the 90s his arguments about that used to make a lot more sense.
