2024 ELECTION THREAD
The next presidential race will be here soon! Please see current Bovada odds. Thoughts?
Yes .
Still an homicide .
Semantic .
If a state with capital punishment execute someone it still a « murder/homicide » even tho it’s been judged to « deserve » it through legal means .
Not all homicides are murder, though. This isn't playing semantics.
If you're a pacifist, fine. Be a pacifist and die on that hill.
I'm not gonna say there's no such thing as the justifiable killing of another person, though.
That said, should any killer be strictly scrutinized? Of course, but it's on the state to justify the use of force to detain them and punish them by proving that there was no reasonably perceived imminent threat to life.
Property is a gray area, confessedly so. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with a threat to property justifying the killing of someone. It's disproportionate and largely pointless in a society where everything is insured up the ass.
My point to Luciom is that abortion is either unjustifiably taking a life or it isn't. The circumstances of rape don't change the personhood status of the embryo/fetus.
No I am not, what I mean is that killing human beings is fully morally justified in libertarianism when there is any NAP violation.
Not only justified but strongly encouraged I would say
But a woman owns her body in libertarianism. Not any other human (even if we're going to treat life as beginning at conception) is entitled to feed on her body and forcibly distort it, let alone make her a parent.
But a woman owns her body in libertarianism. Not any other human (even if we're going to treat life as beginning at conception) is entitled to feed on her body and forcibly distort it, let alone make her a parent.
If she chose voluntarily to put a human in who depends on her she can't change her mind, that's the idea. Or at least, that's why the idea is debatable under libertarianism.
The person didn't come by force, she put the person there
Not all homicides are murder, though. This isn't playing semantics.
If you're a pacifist, fine. Be a pacifist and die on that hill.
I'm not gonna say there's no such thing as the justifiable killing of another person, though.
That said, should any killer be strictly scrutinized? Of course, but it's on the state to justify the use of force to detain them and punish them by proving that there was no reasonably perceived imminent threat to life.
P
My point to you is that under libertarianism you can morally kill people in some cases, so your idea is wrong.
There is the topic of when the fetus becomes a life, and then the topic of the woman body.
Even if the fetus is a person to whom NAP applies, if the woman didn't voluntarily accept to get that person inside, removing trespassers is morally acceptable for libertarians.
Problema arise when the fetus is considered a person, and the woman voluntarily accepted that person in (voluntarily acted in a way that allowed the person in).
If I open my house door and tell people they can come on of they want, I can't kill them for trespassing in libertarianism
If she chose voluntarily to put a human in who depends on her she can't change her mind, that's the idea. Or at least, that's why the idea is debatable under libertarianism.
The person didn't come by force, she put the person there
Well a brainless cell should be considered as equal as u then ?
Really ?
Because the way u speak is no abortion is acceptable at any term limit ….
FWIW I would save 1 full grown baby first before 2 embryo in a bottle ….
Well a brainless cell should be considered as equal as u then ?
Really ?
Because the way u speak us no abortion is acceptable at any term limit ….
FWIW I would save 1 full grown baby first before a 2 embryo in a bottle ….
Man I am personally ok with first trimester abortion. We are trying to discuss what people affiliated with the libertarian party think and why.
Some people, libertarian or not, think from conception on, being human DNA, they are a person.
And then there is the rape thing which is a different discourse.
Man I am personally ok with first trimester abortion. We are trying to discuss what people affiliated with the libertarian party think and why.
Some people, libertarian or not, think from conception on, being human DNA, they are a person.
And then there is the rape thing which is a different discourse.
Good to know but the arguments u using are not transpiring this …
You can be 100% libertarian and oppose all abortion except in case of rape OR allow it till the day of birth or anything in between, because libertarianism doesn't have any specific defensible claim about when a fetus becomes worthy of the same protections we give to full human beings
You can be 100% libertarian and oppose all abortion except in case of rape OR allow it till the day of birth or anything in between, because libertarianism doesn't have any specific defensible claim about when a fetus becomes worthy of the same protections we give to full human beings
The point I was making that LOLwhat couldn’t answer itt is that the Repub and Dem platforms are super close in the broad sense of political stances. You are introducing a stance from Libertarianism, which sounds very different from either main party but also wholly irrelevant given the structure of US politics.
I only brought it up because L0LWAT asked about "progressive conservatism"
I wouldn't call right-wing minarchists conservatives because they really want to tear down just about everything. Maybe I shouldn't even say "right-wing." But the closest I could come up with were extreme capitalists who are otherwise ultra-progressive in the sense I understood him to say "progressive".
Whoever is in office will need to come around to libertarianism real fast once the dollar and bond market collapse if they want to avoid the collapse of civilization, as will enough people to legally make the necessary changes.
Whoever is in office will need to come around to libertarianism real fast once the dollar and bond market collapse if they want to avoid the collapse of civilization, as will enough people to legally make the necessary changes.
People have been saying this since the Nixon Shock. It's not gonna happen.
According to Politico, democrat operatives are terrified right now
According to Politico, democrat operatives are terrified right now
Yeah, half American are brainwashed about the economy .
Perception is more real then reality in politics I suppose …
https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketw...
Stocks are up 12% this year, but nearly half of Americans think they're down. What's going on?
A new poll is offering fresh evidence that the U.S. economy's strong performance isn't resonating with many Americans, even as numerous conventional economic indicators are encouraging.
Some 49% of respondents to the poll, conducted by Harris for the Guardian newspaper, said incorrectly that the S&P 500 SPX was down for the year. The U.S. stock benchmark actually scored a record high Tuesday, stretching its year-to-date rise to about 12% following a 24% gain last year.
MarketWatch noted last week that Americans have appeared indifferent to the stock market's rally, even as the Dow Jones Industrial Average's DJIA first-ever close above 40,000 has generated headlines.
Other findings from the new poll include that 72% said they believe the rate of inflation is increasing. The April report for the consumer price index, or CPI, showed prices rising at a 3.4% pace in the past year, down from a rate above 9% in 2022.
In addition, the poll found 56% of respondents said the U.S. is suffering through a recession. In fact, the American economy is in the middle of a nearly 4-year-old expansion, and few economists think a recession is likely.
The poll, which surveyed 2,119 U.S. adults from May 10 to May 12, also found that 58% said the economy is worsening due to mismanagement by President Biden's administration.
The survey respondents' perception about the stock market versus the reality is hard to fathom, say economic and financial experts who spoke with MarketWatch.
"It's not just that they're wrong, it's that they're spectacularly wrong," said Ben Harris, vice president and director of the economic studies program at the Brookings Institution, a Washington-based think tank.
How to explain this disconnect? Harris says it's largely a story about misinformation.
That is, people often gather their information from social media rather than from traditional news media, including financial news outlets, Harris said. And if popular social-media sources skew toward political ones who stand to benefit from painting a bleak picture of the economy, some followers might end up thinking the markets and the economy are in rough shape.
These sources "are there to confuse Americans," said Harris.
The poll's overall findings were seen by some analysts as a bad sign for Biden's prospects in the White House race against presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump in November.
"The Biden message is not getting across," said Bloomberg News columnist John Authers in a social-media post.
Indeed, Biden has often faced challenges trying to convince Americans that the economy is in better shape than many believe. Meanwhile, Trump has hammered home the message that America's financial state is "a cesspool of ruin."
I guess dems just needs to hammer down what really going on by saying out loud the disconnect of what republicans are saying shrug .
We tried to discuss this several times in this thread and elsewhere.
After a +9% on prices (7% more than the purportedly guaranteed at all costs target from the fed), 0 inflation for 3 years would be what people want, and the fed promised to do anything in it's power to achieve (and has a legal mandate to accomplish).
Remember when inflation was under target for a while Powell said it was proper to catch up with the previous missed inflation.
Yes normal people are technically wrong in saying inflation is growing, what they mean is after that absurd, against target increase, they should at the minimum stop rising for years, yet they keep raising!, the PRICE LEVEL should stop raising completely if the fed did its legally mandated job.
Low income Americans are better off than 5 years ago but there are significant segments of society that saw pay rises lower than inflation. That's life becoming worse by the day for them, a wage recession.
But I agree this isn't necessarily all Biden fault, but try tell Americans not everything that happens is caused by the president...
Why aren't rates at 6, 7, 8 or any number necessary to guarantee inflation goes to 0 for years? As legally mandated to the fed?
This is really anecdotal, but it was a thing down here in Florida four years ago to fly trump flags on boats. You could see them everywhere. This year, not so much. I've seen them, but not near as many as before.
Maybe this isn't a referendum on trump after all, but on Biden. I dunno.
This is really anecdotal, but it was a thing down here in Florida four years ago to fly trump flags on boats. You could see them everywhere. This year, not so much. I've seen them, but not near as many as before.
Maybe this isn't a referendum on trump after all, but on Biden. I dunno.
Trump isn't loved, Biden is kinda hated, that's the feeling around the median (and in polls, and in extensive analysis by many people including a lot of never trump, democrating leaning, centrists).
Biden could still win btw, I think polls about him v Trump underestimate his chances a tad, and the reason is third party choices are too high in polls, I think some people are claiming they don't know or would vote for Kennedy when they know they will close their mouth, curse the world and vote for Biden anyway.
To be clear for the nth time personally I think the world and the USA would be marginally better off if Biden wins, although I don't think it would be a disaster if Trump wins, unless he gets a trifecta with significant margins in which case it's bingo time
We tried to discuss this several times in this thread and elsewhere.
After a +9% on prices (7% more than the purportedly guaranteed at all costs target from the fed), 0 inflation for 3 years would be what people want, and the fed promised to do anything in it's power to achieve (and has a legal mandate to accomplish).
Remember when inflation was under target for a while Powell said it was proper to catch up with the previous missed inflation.
Some people always have hard time regardless the economic condition .
Point is half , half the country think we are in a recession 0o when it clearly isn’t so .
And many other metrics like that …
The reality isn’t just sinking in .
Some people always have hard time regardless the economic condition .
Point is half , half the country think we are in a recession 0o when it clearly isn’t so .
And many other metrics like that …
The reality isn’t just sinking in .
No we are talking 30-40% of households having lower real disposable income according to JP Morgan analysis (mostly people around middle incomes, many of them renters especially in expensive areas).
Then there is the obscenity of mortgages.
Basically if you own a house with a mortgage on you can't sell to buy elsewhere unless you want to suffer a lot right now.
You are paying 3-4% and would need to finance at 7 to buy a new one.
That's millions of households who would have liked to downsize, upside, or move, who either can't , or suffer a monstrous financial hit if they do (ot the order of 1k/month+ less in disposable income, which is a lot for normal people)
No we are talking 30-40% of households having lower real disposable income according to JP Morgan analysis (mostly people around middle incomes, many of them renters especially in expensive areas).
Then there is the obscenity of mortgages.
Basically if you own a house with a mortgage on you can't sell to buy elsewhere unless you want to suffer a lot right now.
You are paying 3-4% and would need to finance at 7 to buy a new one.
That's millions
And what having the luxury of living in a house with 2% of mortgage rates having to do being in recession ?
a recession is when we suffer negative 2 quarters of GDP growth right ?
Gdp is related on economic activity right ?
Now u want to talk about the living condition of people ?
ok but that has nothing to do with being in a recession or not.
real disposable income in the US today are near all time high, on ascending trend after the little windown of inflation in 2022 and higher now then during
trump years so i dont know what exactly half americains are complaining.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229R...
US still have high economic growth.
high disposable REAL income.
low inflation compare to anybody around the world.
all time high stock markets
near all time low unemployment
so u can try to convince me the us economy is in a recession but i wont fall for disinformnation...
lets turn around the question.
which country would you rather be luciom instead of the US for the economic factor only ?
which country is better to be in ?
The US economy isn't in recession.
But real wages aren't all going up the same, and a substantial fraction of households saw their real wages go down. Especially because they don't all consume the same things, so CPI works to describe the entire society, but some people can face higher than CPI inflation in their consumption basket.
A clear example is renters. Rent went up more than inflation is many areas.
The US economy isn't in recession.
But real wages aren't all going up the same, and a substantial fraction of households saw their real wages go down. Especially because they don't all consume the same things, so CPI works to describe the entire society, but some people can face higher than CPI inflation in their consumption basket.
A clear example is renters. Rent went up more than inflation is many areas.
thank you.
as for real wages
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer....
All employees
Real average hourly earnings for all employees decreased 0.2 percent from March to April, seasonally
adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an increase of 0.2
percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the Consumer Price
Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).
Real average weekly earnings decreased 0.4 percent over the month due to the change in real average
hourly earnings combined with a 0.3-percent decrease in the average workweek.
Real average hourly earnings increased 0.5 percent, seasonally adjusted, from April 2023 to April 2024.
The change in real average hourly earnings combined with no change in the average workweek resulted
in a 0.5-percent increase in real average weekly earnings over this period.
and posting again real disposable income...
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229R...
ascending trend since 2023 near all time high.
So again not sure what there is to complain.
yes maybe 20-25% suffer, they always suffer anyway in any economic conditions...
does that justify biden poor presidency for the economy ? NO!!
is 50% of americans are brain dead about the economy ? yes !
thank you.
as for real wages
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer....
and posting again real disposable income...
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229R...
ascending trend since 2023 near all time high.
So again not sure what there is to complain.
yes maybe 20-25% suffer, they always suffer anyway in any economic conditions...
does that justify biden poor presidency for the economy ? NO!!
is 50% of americans are brain dead about the
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.busines...
You can't use the average and claim everyone is better off
