The costs of trans visibility

yeah but i took time to explain to you why you misunderstood it, you ignored all that despite that you even quoted the post

it doesn't feel like you're posting in good faith

Which does not mean what you think it means.

No idea what you're trying to say here.

I was saying that some people think they themselves (and everyone who is white) are racist by definition.

I wasn't responding to you w/ my post.

But I did understand what you're saying. You're saying it's incumbent upon the user to identify how they want. So even if you filter out other non-binary options, you may still see them.

All I was doing was copying and pasting from the site, and saying if it's not working as intended, contact support. I'm not sure if they can do much if trans men want to identify as women in the app and not as trans.

I can understand why that would be frustrating if you only want to date biological women. I'm not disagreeing with you, nor was I ever.

Ya.... understood that. I was saying, I'd rather take MORE people (the over) that race shame themselves, than people who are racist against other races than their own, and actively look to discriminate and hate on others. At least the self haters are trying to use compassion, even if it's misguided.

ahh see i now see where the disconnect is

trans doesn't mean non binary

they often intersect on the venn diagram

but the pool of people who identify as non binary are significantly larger than people who are trans

furthermore, for many trans, being called non-binary is an insult which denies their chosen gender indentity

many people you'd have called effeminate or tomboys in the past now call themselves non-binary

you can be a straight, cisgender person, who exclusively dates the opposite sex and still identify as non binary

lyle would be non-binary if he were born today

It is working as intended, which is another part of why it seems like you didn't understand.

For sure that is true. And I'm pretty sure there are more of the actual racists as well.

you can see that trans are under the non-binary umbrella, but only a portion of it

they are also under the male and female umbrella as well

see that, gender nonconforming, that's the big chunk of that distribution - tomboys and effeminate men

so a filter of non-binary is a cultural filter more than a sexual one as filtering out non-binary does exclude cisgender women who are looking to date men

which is kind of dumb because lots of straight men who'd never in a million years choose non-binary for the same confused reason you had would be very much into dating a tomboy if not outright prefer one much the same as there's plenty of women who prefer men like lyle

I can see both sides of the argument here, but I probably fall on this side. On one hand, apps could make it a lot less ambiguous by using male/female rather than man/woman.

However on the other hand, trans people are so vanishingly rare, and even more so those where it's not immediately obvious what their sex is that the chances of being duped are very small. Moreover, If somehow it wasn't apparent what their sex was, they did not disclose this, and it all went down the route of The Crying Game, then this is sexual assault and arguably rape. The anxiety of this is real and something women have to worry about all the time. This isn't usually something men have to consider, but this is one such circumstance.

Do try to pay attention. You said this:

It took less than a minute to learn that this app as a feature that makes this, uh, concern of yours irrelevant: Any trans person who doesn't want to "waste time" by not disclosing their trans status until they are chatting can use the build in feature where you can display as a profile option that you are trans. You can do the same for being cis. I have no idea what imagined position you thought I had earlier, but the single point I made in this exchange was that this feature solves the problems you were worried about and actually seems pretty good!

Well, I said that IF you were worried that a conversation would waste time, you can put it in your own profile that you are uninterested in trans women. Let's not forget your gargantuan overreaction the last time someone mentioned they were potentially open to sleeping with trans women - so hopefully that hot tip helps!

that's not how it works at all, you fundamentally don't understand it

a trans person doesn't have to disclose they are trans

there's no way to put "no trans please" in any format whatsoever where you appear as a sane and normal person

the only people who put "not fatties" "no republicans/democrats" "no vegans" "no people with kids" etc are known red flag people - if i put that down, everyone in the world who sees it doesn't think "oh he'd prefer not to waste time with someone who isn't ready to disclose until the 2nd date that they have a penis" but they think it's something else, and even worse, it'll draw women who i probably have no interest in being with because they liked the fact that i had that in my profile

for example, despite being 6'2" i instantly swipe left on anyone who has a "must be 6' to date me" on their profile - it's not because I'm against that stance - i too personally prefer tall women, it's because height is already included in all profiles and only an idiot who was 6' or taller would leave that blank so they can easily visually filter that out, filter it out via the app's filters directly, or ask in person (i often get asked as a confirmation because it's not unusual for a 5'11 guy to put 6'2") so when i see them feeling a need to put that in their bio - it just tells me more about them than their preferences, that this is probably not a very smart or kind person and probably not someone i'd be very interested in

no exaggeration whatsoever, i even matched with a few as a social experiment just to ask them why they felt the need to put that there highlighting the reasons above why it was just unnecessary, and as would not be surprised, they never really had much of a good reason and in general sucked to talk to

it's also not something you can politely suss out in conversation and there's no greater way to offend a woman than by asking her if she's trans (yes i know they are all hateful bigots i guess)

i said all along that there's no way to filter out trans people in the app, that is 100% true

even those who choose to have trans in their profile are not filtered out they still appear in the feed, which is a waste of time

but i do highly appreciate those who do, some pass incredibly well, the photos are also the best photos ever taken in your life at the best angles and often touched up by photoshop or an app and you wouldn't believe they were trans without seeing it in the profile

there's a few who match and are really good about and find a way to mention it right off the bat, at which point i say thanks for letting me know, you seem nice but that's not something I'm interested in and then that's it

i've never had a crying game moment or anything, i can't state enough that's its a stupid design and that's my main beef, that it's intentionally stupid and brings minor annoyances that can be so easily avoided, like i can literally tell the app not to show me any short women or jews or only show me smokers, but i can't filter by whether or not they have a penis - which is just stupid

also, i think you underestimate how many trans women do not disclose & don't think they need to disclose either and the idea that this is ok is reinforced by dating sites saying "oh yeah it's up to you"

do you not remember that exceedingly attractive trans model who was so deep undercover as a female that nobody knew, none of her friends or coworkers knew, not even her dating partners who weren't told until absolutely necessary - she only came out as trans not because she decided to, but because people eventually figured it out

and it's just absolutely so shameful and terrible to frame it as if the people who are not interested in dating a transwoman are bigots - what you are supporting is rape, it is 100% rape - but apparently that's a-ok because they are oppressed people and we need to be open and accepting of anything they do

Do try to pay better attention. You said a specific thing:

My singular point was to say that this specific thing you said was not an issue since a trans person worried by this CAN disclose it on their profile in the settings. You could have just said "good point, uke_master", but let's see where the rambling essay you type instead ends up. I'm guessing it not good.

Yikes. I predicted it was going to be bad, but somehow you rambled long enough to conclude I was supporting rape? We've seen you get to a lot of ridiculous conclusions of late - remember your sham marriage fiasco? - but this is quite something.

no, you're point was awful, you don't understand how it works in the slightest, their experience would be much better if people could filter them out because then they wouldn't be wasting so much time on matching and then getting unmatched

and do tell, how is it not rape? if they do not disclose their gender then nothing which transpires is consentual

lol, do try to focus on the specific thing you said. Let me help you: “when they finally disclose it via chatting”. But the app has a setting so you can see their trans status on their profile! You don’t need to wait until it comes out via chatting! You were wrong!

How you managed to get from this banal point about app settings to concluding I support rape of all things is a level of twisted contortions there is no way I’m going to read that entire essay of yours to figure out what on earth you are on about. At least “you support rape” finally beats out “sham marriage” for the dumbest non-sequitor yet ITT. Perhaps we will get me supporting hitler by next week??

My goodness.

What I find sadly amusing is that many trans people don't seem to want others to be attracted to them "because they are trans". Their ideal partners seem to be a man who normally dates cis women but really is just attracted to anyone who appears to be pretty and feminine. They mostly seem to specifically scorn interest from a man who has dated trans women before and figured out that is exactly what they like. It's considered to be "fetishistic" and not accounting for the humanity of the person.
Basically they think men who are extremely excited about being with a trans woman are kind of creepy for focusing on their genitalia instead of their personality, etc.
So they strive to find a man who has only dated women with vaginas previously, was not looking for a woman with a penis, but when he finds out he is dating a woman with a penis, he just thinks "huh, I wasn't expecting this, but if I like this person I must have to at lease try to like her sexual organs. They don't want a man to want to date them because they have a penis, but despite their penis. I'm sure it is extremely limiting on their already limited dating pool.

I am generally attracted to women who are heavier than what most men (or at least most media) believe to be the ideal female figure. Maybe its closer to the US ideal of the 1940s-1950s, where models and actresses often were very buxom and with very wide hips. But that figure is tough to keep as a woman gets older, so I'm fine with a woman having a significant belly and thicker arms and thighs. I do not treat them like a fetish object, I just clearly enjoy seeing and touching their bodies and am not trying to encourage them to lose weight. Universally, the women seem to enjoy being treated like a feminine sexy woman, which is how I see them. No one I remember has ever told me that they didn't want to be with someone who "only dates fat chicks" implying there must be something wrong with a man like that.

Personally, I know I am not considered particularly attractive by the vast majority of women, but I have always been able to find a few women who are attracted to me (and for which I am eternally grateful). I imagine some of them are just attracted to my personality, intelligence, the way I treat them, etc and don't care much about looks at all. Some others though, maybe have a particular node in her brain that goes for a middle aged man who is in average US physical state for that demographic (not great) and is not particularly wealthy or successful. Maybe she is even really turned on by guys who have an pizza and ice cream gut, a very large forehead which is getting bigger every year as the head hair is migrating down to a hairy back. No one has told me these things specifically , except one who said she did go for the teddy-bear type, but if anyone told me I was exactly their kink, and it was someone I liked a lot and was attracted to, I would think I had hit the jackpot, not be rejecting her for fetishizing me.

Trans women should really be having their own dating apps called something like "chicks with dicks", It's a big thing in online porn and I'm sure there are lots of straight guys who would be at least curious about being with one of them. They could all put kind of relationship they're looking for and what their prior experience with trans women has been. Seems like many of them could easily find a man interested in dating them for awhile, and then find out fairly quickly if the man is comfortably with the situation and is treating the transwoman with respect and if they are both interested in a long term thing they could find very happy relationships. I might be interested in dating someone like that myself to see what it was like, but it is very unusual for trans women to have the "ultra-feminine" curvy body type and facial features that I'm most attracted to. They also seem to have many tattoos and piercings, which are a big turnoff for me.

I agree, but I don't think it's as big a problem as you do. I don't remember seeing- the trans category highlighted in profiles, but I many times have seen it mentioned right at the beginning of the open brief introduction section. It's usually clear enough that I notice it right away, but a few times I have been swiping quickly and not noticed that. Then if we match I look at the profile again and notice it and at that point usually unmatch, before we have had any contact. Maybe once or twice they wrote me right away, which cis woman (in my age group anyway) almost never do. The being willing to be forward and tell about yourself and what you're looking for is very refreshing and is another reason I have considered "trying things out" with one of them. Really the main thing holding me back is that I think I would probably chicken out right when it got to the sex part. Also I would worry about having a good chance at getting STDs, especially HIV, which is much more likely to be spread through homosexual sex activities than standard heterosexual ones.

are you genuinely this obtuse or is this all an act

you can't see it on their profiles unless they choose to put it there, many don't put it there

I'm still waiting for you to tell how engaging in sexual activity with someone without disclosing your sex is not rape

You’re so close now! You can get over the finish line! Here, I’ll help you. Your quoted concern was about trans people who would waste their time - not yours, theirs - by having to disclose via chatting. Any trans person similarly concerned can immediately resolve that issue by disclosing it via profile setting. Got it yet?

Buddy, other than having to explain to you how the app you use works, I’ve said nothing further. The outlandishly ridiculous “you support rape” comment is just the spurious invention of your own mind based. We’re not going to do 20 questions about it, this is just pure laugh and point mode now.

i don't think it's that big a problem, i just find it really stupid and something that has good intentions but causes more problems and inconvenience for everyone involved

and don't worry, since they're women then it's not a homosexual act so no aids 😀

jfc dude, if you think it's a fun experience to feel unwelcomed and unwanted that you need to deceive people into thinking you are something else, and then when you do finally disclose ityou are unmatched with them (and thus reinforcing why they should be deceiving in the first place) is a good experience for them then i don't know what to tell you

i also don't think it's a good experience for the other side either - it just sucks for everyone involved

we also have a lengthy history of trans people being murdered by sexual partners who were deceived - it really feels like we shouldn't be encouraging something which is both rape if it gets beyond a certain point and something that has led to the murder of them in the past

but sure, it's a good experience for them

and also, as rob highlighted, it's really easy to skim over the fact they are trans, especially since most people aren't really giving too much scrutiny to profiles unless matched that I'm sure trans, even those who disclose it, get a significantly higher unmatch rate than non trans because you may just like the initial photo and swipe right without even seeing the bio until taking another look post matching and then promptly unmatching

which is obviously a much worse experience because it makes the rejection up front and visceral

I think their intentions are to make things as easy as possible for those with atypical gender identifications and sexual orientations, and as difficult as possibly for the majority of cis-hetero people to reject those minorities. I believe it's been designed to work a very particular way and the way it works is exactly the way they want it to work.

Oh shoot, you got distracted by tangents about murders and rapes again. Let's try - TRY! - to stay focused on the specific thing I claim you are wrong about. One more (last?) time:

Your "more than anything" concern was that a trans person would have their time wasted by waiting until chatting to disclose it. Ok. The app solves that! A trans person worried by this can use the app's setting to display that they are trans in their profile. No trans person "needs to deceive" anyone until they "finally disclose it", they can disclose right there on the profile. Easy!

You can think the lack of filtering for this is bad in other ways, and dot dot dot rape and murder if you must be like that, but in the specific way you cited you are just wrong.

rick - You can't argue with uke about this. He feels that anything that has even the slightest chance of making a transperson* feel better is not only 100% percent legit, it should be mandated. It does not matter how these thing affect anyone else. It's the feels that count.