The costs of trans visibility

It's called skill level. Some people just aren't that good, doesn't mean being a male for the majority of your life before transitioning to female doesn't come with an abundance of physical advantages.

I'm not sure I understand the question. In some sports, at college level, the best trans athlete is better than the best non-trans athletes.

I agree. I said the same in the post you responded to.

Lia won a single event, and wasn't even ranked in the top 25 nationally of all female swimmers

And thats with all the advantages of a full male puberty

Well there it is. If a trans woman isn't ranked first and wins every single event, she does not enjoy any full male puberty advantages at all, biology is a myth.

Not at all possible she's just ****, as she was when she was a man but infinitely less **** vs women. Which btw, your rankings show. Not even top 500 as a man vs a division 1 champion as a woman. Yeah good luck denying that one.

Shocking that letting women compete with women and men with men is such a difficult concept to grasp.

I literally just said she had the benefit of a full male puberty.

Despite that, she still wasn't a swimming powerhouse, just managed to win in a category that relied on stamina.

You aren't (and probably can't) normalizing for improvement from Freshman to Senior year. What 4 years of top level training can do for your performance. When I was freshman in wrestling I was unranked and JV, but by the time I was a senior I was top 5 and one of the leaders on the team. Thats typically how it works.

Obviously people improve. Lia Thomas was ranked outside the top 500 as a male, might be 400 and would’ve never ended up top 5 after 3-4 years. She did as a female.

Wonder why.

Anyways boss. We’re gonna keep going in circles so you can have the last word if you want I’ll leave it at that.

We’re never going to agree.

Wonder why you came in hot, throwing around insults implying that you are in an intellectually superior position, then bow out after a mild push back

Kinda pathetic

Simone Biles. 4'8". That type of advantage shouldn't be allowed.

I thought this was an intersex issue but haven't been following closely

The reason it's related to this thread is because it's unfair and destroying women's sport

After chillrob posted his what's the big deal maaaaan it's just words and definitions post I thought about explaining in more detail but didn't feel like putting in the work. Then he made the well trans doesn't matter because I'd abolish scholarships etc post and I considered again but decided to move along

Long story short you can see in this clip a ladies life work, goals, dreams, dedication, and yes identity made a total mockery of by a cheater

It's like people have zero understanding of life. As humans we typically find something to specialize in and become an expert. Sometimes sports is that thing and sometimes the process is preparation

On top of that it's also about what makes people happy. People are drowning in cheap dopamine like drugs, porn, sugar, gambling, social media etc. That brings pleasure but doesn't make you happy. Often the opposite.

What makes you happy is setting a goal and making progress towards it.

Cheaters in women's sports destroys all that. It's just disgusting watching these cheaters make a mockery of them and celebrating

yes we accept genetic variance inside gender, same reason why specific ethnicities dominate specific sports.

we can claim Phelps couldn't have achieved what he did if he hadn't been in the top 0.01% worldwide of genetically predisposed bodies for that task. still that requires being the best (the most inclined to train and so on) among (approx) 1m people with similarly inclined genetically predisposed individuals for the task (or make it 100k or even 10k if you think his body is even rarer).

funny you mention this because genetics matter a great deal individually, and for groups, for any outcome, (for all living species), especially at the tails of the distribution, but your political tribe usually denies that.

Woman who has been a woman her entire life and competed as a girl when she was young is a cheater because she's continuing to compete as a woman...

There is a genuine, important discussion to be had about this but it's made so much harder to have when people are being demonised for being themselves, competing how they have done their entire life, and doing so entirely within the rules. It's bad enough but at least understandable when actual transgender people are talked about in this way but it's completely unacceptable in cases like this one.

Again, there is a genuine discussion to be had but if you want people to actually have it with you then you need to stop using such incendiary language, especially in cases like this one where it is not just insulting but also based utterly and entirely on nonsense.

uh?

Be born female
Be raised female
Participate in female sports
Get called cheater by people whos entire knowledge of your life is contained in a tweet

Again, in Algeria, where Imane is from, its illegal to be gay/trans. So the "semantics", as you put it, about this person being or not being trans, is the difference between them being able to represent their country in the Olympics and being in jail. That Algeria, the country in question where its illegal to be gay/trans allowed this person to represent their country in the Olympics should tell you all you need to know about the "semantics" involved.

Kinda funny that you start off in the first post saying you haven't been falling closely, but still launch into this whole sky-is-falling narrative regardless. From what we know, this seems far from a normal case of a trans person in sport like Lia Thomas etc, and so all these claims about her being a "cheater" and destroying woman's sport seems pretty stupid.

A jake paul tweet no less.

I would agree with most if this was a trans-woman but this seems to be a legit female though.

Amen.

you're confused

if they had a separate division for people over 5'5" then should she be allowed to compete in that though?

FWIW coordi is the only person I've seen deny that going through male puberty is an advantage in (most) sports and I think his denial (i.e. pointing out specific cases where trans women aren't very successful) is very much counterproductive to his entire position. Every other trans activist I've talked to or listened to about this (who cares at all about sports - there are plenty who don't give a **** about sports at all whose positions are very different because of that) agrees that there needs to be a line somewhere and that having people who went through male puperty competing at the highest level of female sport is generally not fair and should not be allowed. The hard question is where that line is and how that decision is made/enforced.

there are plenty of trans activists organizations which claim that going through male puberty doesn't give any intrinsic advantage.

this is A4TE (the biggest trans activists organization in the USA afaik) official position on the topic

https://transequality.org/issues/sports

so please don't play the game of trying to claim this complete denial of objective truth isn't THEIR SHARED POSITION and what they push at all levels

Why are you belittling a NCAA Div. I swimming title? You make it sound like she won a Saturday morning swim-off at the local club.

you might be surprised to learn that I don't care very much about what the Algerian government definition of being trans is.

that person has a vagina, and for the Algerian government definition that makes her a woman.

So she is not trans wrt Algerian government definition, if she tries to participate in women sports.

that person has XY chromosomes though, and for the definition used by many people elsewhere, that makes him a man.

so he is a biological man trying to participate in women sports, for the people who share that definition.

so yes it's semantics

I see. So you think she should be allowed to continue competing as she is, since she was born female, cool. Not sure why you think "a completely made up theory of how to decide what "woman" means and now it's politicized" fits into this.

Nice to see the mask come off for JK, though. All this time it's supposedly been about women's rights, but now she's on the bandwagon misgendering a woman, calling her a misogynist, and on and on it goes.

As Wiild said, there's a discussion to be had here when it comes to fairness (reminds me a bit of eastern bloc women in the 80s), but all this ****ing nonsense about her cheating, being a man, etc., is just that - complete ****ing nonsense.

Because it's the only way for his argument to make sense. This way he can say that being ranked outside the top 500 as a male is the same as winning an NCAA title as a female. Otherwise it obviously makes 0 sense.

lol, you can tell these guys have **** the bed completely when they have to go back to whining about Lia Thomas.

So, assigned female at birth, has a vagina, identifies as a cisgender woman, lives her whole life as a woman, but still is a man somehow? How do you guys want gendered bathrooms to work, exactly, I gotta scan my chromosomes with a tricorder to figure out which bathroom I can pee in?

I don't think I've ever denied going through male puberty is an advantage. I literally called it an advantage 30 minutes ago, then again 10 minutes ago.

We don't have data to tell how quantifiable this advantage is after transition. Initial data sets would tell us that transitioned individuals aren't performing significantly better outside of a very small portion of outliers. Outliers can be explained by a lot of things