Israel/Palestine thread

they havent nuked anything yet, although that was an option, right?
what should they do now instead iyo?

"Out of line" is definitely not the best phrasing. I am not sure what is.... maybe "But Israel is killing far too many civilians".

I am also unsure of what the best course of action is. This is a situation where every outcome will be awful, so we are trying to judge how awful this outcome is and how awful other outcomes would be and determine which one is less awful. That's very difficult to do.

It is an incredibly difficult situation because giving arms to Israel is an extremely contentious thing to do, but when left to their own devices they have chosen the cheaper, less precise weapons because they are far cheaper. Attacking a city, especially one as densely populated as Gaza, requires precision or else you end up with this. As far as America is concerned "give more weapons to save lives" is not a great political stance, but it seems like that would have been the better course of action. I can already see some posters taking this out of context in the future to suggest something I'm not suggesting.

I do think it is possible that completely cutting off Gaza and not attacking at all could have been the best option, although doing nothing to save the hostages is obviously a horrible thing to do short term.

All responses to this situation suck.

Israel has dropped at least 3 atomic bombs worth of munitions at this point. Literally like 50 kilotons. Half the housing has been destroyed for a population of 2.5 million people. More civilians have been killed by Israel in 3 months than by Russia in 2 years.

They should bomb less, destroy less, and kill fewer people. By a lot.

Stink bombs or ko gas to knock them out or force them out? is that an option? Not sure how many gas masks palestine has, but I doubt its 2 million. That would force civilians out and they could be recepted by israeli forces at the borders where they would get detained.

Drone attacks would also be an option. precise and without the loss of civilians. why dont they do that?

I disagree they should have done nothing with the hostage situation at hand. they wanted to negotiate Im guessing. As long as there are hostages you do not get in. Thats rule no in any hostage situation isnt it?

You are extremely wrong. Like, there are arguments in the whole Russia thing. It's not super clear cut. This is as bang on clear cut as the Holocaust.

I can understand why someone looks at Ukraine with your viewpoint and still consider them an reasonable albeit misguided. The arguments and ideas you have adopted in this thread are disgusting.

In 3 months the IDF has directly killed about the same number of civilians as the USA (directly) has everywhere in the world in the last 23 years across 7 conflict zones with at least 90000 air strikes.

I assumed thats what you meant. yeah that is correct.

but why dont they do the drone thing? not enough drones? not enough

skilled people? they could ask for help.

"can't refute throw ad hominems"

Who said they should have done nothing? I explicitly said "how about a quarter of an atomic bomb? or half of one maybe?"

Frustrating

I suggested that in the long run if they had "done nothing" but completely close the border and isolated themselves things might be better off in the future.

"They" don't have one reason. It's a combination of revenge, trying to push people out of Gaza, and indifference towards civilian deaths.

They are mostly trying to blow up infrastructure that requires very heavy explosives. They are just not letting the fact people are in the vicinity stop them from achieving their objectives, as many would prefer.

For good or bad the first world has just accepted that when it comes to asymmetric warfare where a first world nation is fighting on the home turf of a third world nation, the weaker side can just use their own civilians as human shields to prohibit the stronger side from winning. This is a mean reason the western world doesn't win wars anymore. For good or bad, Israel has decided not to accept this paradigm in this conflict, and to actually try to win.

I said they should have done nothing, at least in the first weeks and month to get the hostages out. they had to have tried at least.

You were joking with the nukes, right? of course you were. although I heard someone suggesting to just drop a nuke on them.

I had to click read posts for the lols

They did not disappoint

every third building in gaza got nuked it says.
It also says that every third building cannot possible be a hamas hideout. or can it? idk

yea the fact that people didnt leave or that hamas forced them to stay plays a major role in the situation now. there should be nobody except hamas by now.

What does "close the border" mean? Gaza has no economy. They are completely reliant on foreign aid for everything. I mean I guess a siege that starved everyone would "work" if Israel has the will to see it through, but it is hard to imagine that would be received better than the current action. And this isn't even getting into the reality there is no way to stop weapons from being shipped in through tunnels without disabling the tunnels, which would require an invasion.

I dont think Israel knows where the Hamas hideous are. But if you blow up all the buildings and tunnels that is one way to make sure you got them. Also, maybe you dont find this a morally defensible position, but if your goal is stop missiles and attacks from North Gaza, than making North Gaza uninhabitable is certainly one way to achieve that goal.

I mean, this kind of stuff has been going on for 20+ years since Israel ceded control of Gaza. During that time period Israel tried much more limited bombing and military invasions, that obviously didn't accomplish very much. Obviously they are trying something new this time, they think will work better. Time will tell.

For the current state of affairs I would blame the UN and greater Muslim world (Arab countries, Iran, Turkey) as much as Israel/US.

Palestinian society has become extremely radicalized in the last 80 years. And this didn't happen accidentally. The UN and greater Muslim world has been pushing this mostly for their own cynical political ends, as the expense of the Palestinian people. There has pretty much been no upside or even hope for the Palestinian people due to the path they have chosen. And all the people pushing them along this path (especially the ones funding, arming and providing help to groups like Hamas) are a big part of the problem.

The fact that on 10/7 millions of progressives and Muslims were celebrating the attacks, when it was patently obvious nothing good was going to come of it for the Palestinians themselves, shows how malignant and perverse the "support" they are receiving really is.

It's a hypothetical and not something I've really thought through. Shouldn't be that hard to come up with a something though.

"Since The Disengagement in 2005, Gaza has fired over 10,000 rockets as Israel. After this most recent terrorist attack, if no other body steps up to control Gaza, we will be forced to occupy it. Per the Dahiya doctrine, the only way to do this is by overwhelming force in one of the most densely populated cities in the world, where our enemies use civilian shields and blur the lines of what is military or civilian. The results will be devastating; we urge someone to step forward and take control of the situation there or else we will have to use force to protect ourselves and will not held accountable for the civilian deaths that occur."

It would obviously be worded far differently from this, but this covers the main points imo. I don't think it's realistic with the current Israeli government, but I wasn't asked that. It was off the top of my head when asked what actions could potentially lead to a better outcome. It's also possible this leads to a worse outcome (I think you've already argued that this type of response would lead to a worse outcome and it's not a bad argument).

https://www.thefp.com/p/imam-father-gaza...

--Interesting article from a Gaza resident whose Imam father was abducted by Hamas for not supporting "the resistance," and generally how Hamas is not doing much good for the Palestinian people.

--Of course Hamas themselves are completely propped up financially and militarily by foreign states, including US "allies" such as Turkey and Qatar. In a sane world they should be receiving as much criticism as the US and Israel for the current state of affairs. Yet they are mostly given a free pass.

Thanks for posting

this is just a ludicrous statement. you really just need to read Israeli media and twitter to see how wrong it is. why are you just parroting Joe Biden administration talking points with such confidence?

read the thread. or click on the who posted button and read my posts. Israeli officials, from their own mouths and twitter accounts are saying the exact opposite.

you are so brainwashed by your love of USA and western media that you require someone to spoon feed you info to shape your ideas.

you are literally the Crowder meme.

Israel already occupies Gaza. they have occupied it for 75 years. jfc you really need to crack open a wikipedia at least.

they do love killing people. thats easy to see. but thats not why they are killing. they are killing so that they can drive the Gazans out of their land, just like they did decades ago.