Israel/Palestine thread

https://www.razibkhan.com/p/more-than-ki...

A population geneticist weighs in on the actual genetics of various Levant populations. I am not a payed subscriber to this person so I dont have access to the full publication, but between the parts of the paper I did read and a Twitter discussion that lead me to this paper, the following very general conclusions can be made:

--European Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardic) are generally most closely genetically related to Italians

--Middle Eastern Jewish populations are generally genetically native to the lands they were recently kicked out of by the Muslims as collective punishment when Israel formed (Syria, Iran, Yemen, etc.)

--Muslim Palestinians are generally recent immigrants to the region who came during various Muslim invasion and conquests from places such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

--Christian Palestinians and Lebanese (most of whom have recently emigrated out of the Levant) are genetically the most native to the region. Ironically, because Islam is by definition an Apartheid colonizing religion/culture, these people were immediately assigned dhimni second class status when conquered by Muslim invaders, so they didn't mix very much.

bro, no one cares about people 100s of years ago. lol at trying to justify this bullshit bc some Moooslems in 780 did some bad ****.

and lol at using dna to determine who can live a certain place.

Israel allows Palestinians and all muslims pray in Jerusalem. They allow jordan to control the temple mount

When jordan occupied Jerusalem from 1948-1967 and nobody in the world gave a **** or used that word, they did not allow jews to pray in Jerusalem. The partition plan with borders you think should exist today said Jerusalem should be ruled by both and all religions have access. But the Muslims would not allow it

When jordan withdrew from Jerusalem Israel said they still need to control the temple mount. Israel wanted everyone to pray there. Israel has since annexed Jerusalem. In 1988 jordan officially gave up its claim to Jerusalem

There will never again be an Israel without a clear path to Jerusalem. Ever. I get that you don't understand why that it so important but it is. Anything else is a nonstarter

I also agree the lack of caring throughout the world for the Palestinians is disgusting. That includes the Muslim world

And yet you support the generational Palestinian war of re-conquest over land they allegedly lost 4+ generations ago, where most of them were the descendants of recent colonizers themselves.

Correct?

Brown people can't be colonizers!

The Arabs:

-- allied with the Germans in WWII, knowing full well what was going on in Europe.

-- Refused to allow the Jews fleeing the Holocaust to form the original tiny area of Israel that was proposed by the British

-- promised to genocide the Jews off the land if they tried to form Israel

--attempted to do just this multiple times, but lost every time, losing more land in the process each time

--have kept promising to annihilate Israel "from the river to the sea" (at least the Palestinians. In fairness the Egyptians and Jordans and some others seem to have grudgingly moved on from conquering Israel)

--never offering the tiniest bit of empathy themselves. Not a single drop. Quite the opposite, they vow to finish what Hitler started.

And these are the people Israeli's are supposed to be empathetic to, correct? At the cost of their own security, safety and survival, given every time they have put down their guard they have been viscously attacked (see 10/7 as just the most recent example of an 80 year history of similar acts)

Who occupied most Arab territory when WW2 started?

You're adorbs sometimes

Great Britain.

I guess if Great Britain had held onto this territory a few centuries while persecuting, abusing and making the Arabs all second class citizens to the point most of them just left (with the occasional massacre thrown in), eventually becoming the dominant ethnic group; then they could claim they were the ones being colonized and ethnically cleansed, and have the moral high ground if the Arabs ever tried to take the land back.

My point is it takes a very particular intentional ignorance of history, or generally how the world works, to declare the Palestinians have some moral authority to reconquer Israel and undo the Nakbar. And Israel and the rest of the world have some obligation to let them generationally live in refugee camps and support them while they fight a guerrilla war against Israel.

It is high time to give up the dream of reconquering Israel and either live in peace where you are or go somewhere else to live in peace. The continued support for guerilla war and conquest of Israel is utter genocidal madness that should not be permitted any longer (and really shouldn't have been most of the last 80 years)

Everyone in charge during ww2 has died

“These are the people” don’t exist

That certainly is not relevant to the Palestinian people.

You have this weird mental block that the Palestinian people just want to live in Gaza and the West Bank, make a state and coexist peacefully. If that was the case we would have had peace decades ago. They want to conqer Israel, a country that has existed 80 years. That is what this is about.

You are the one supporting the side living in the past, who are trying to conquer and colonize a country that existed before any of them were born, because of some tale their great great grandparent lived on an olive farm there almost a century ago.

I think that is a grievance that most Americans can not really appreciate due to our mobility and the fact that (for most) at some point their family decided to forfeit any ties like that and move.

I don't think it's fair to write it off as ridiculous.

Dunno what that means.

I'm not sure you or dunyan got my point, which was that in WW2 many Arabs welcomed Germany in the region (North Africa mostly) because they were occupied/colonized by Britain or France and Germany was the enemy of their enemy and that it had nothing to do with Jews.

Where have I heard that argument before...

I don't respect general claims on land for "peoples", but there are still some people alive whose land was stolen and certainly their parents, but really living in today and not the past, it's just that people should be able to live free where they were born and no one in Gaza or the Palestinian West Bank gets even close to that.

Dunno...about how Hitler and Ireland? Or you mean Finland? If you're talking about me....yeah, I've talked about how the Finns allied with Hitler and they were not anti-Semitic.

I support their struggle against a brutal occupying force. if they turned into oppressors themselves and applied the same treatment towards the Israel's then I would ofc oppose that and support the Israeli inhabitants.

they have never had this option due to the Israelis so its a really dumb thing to say.

You’re right. If Israel wanted peace this woulda ended long ago

You understand this only works if you are committed to peace with your neighbors. You dont get to declare a permanent war against your neighbors, generally lose but still refuse to stop fighting, and still get to "live free" to pursue your Jihad to kill your neighbors. At some point any reasonable neighbor is going to stay "stop, you cant act like this. You dont have a right to just continually try to kill me for something that happened long before any of us were born"

actual reality and factual history is that our people have gotten kicked out of 100 countries/regions since the beginning of written history and i cant figure out why they hate us.

Well, certainly no Palestinian comes out of the womb, opens their eyes, and yearns for a return to their great grandparents olive farm. Obviously there is an extreme amount of malicious, antisocial conditioning to get to this point. I can appreciate this is the reality of the situation, which is why I think the UNRWA and generally the greater Muslim world that props up Hamas deserves a lot of the blame. Because they are providing the conditioning.

The entire society of Gaza is organized around support of violence, martyrdom, overt antisemitism, Jihad, demonization of the West, and rejection of peace with Israel. You can say someone is just a product of their environment and it isn't their fault, but at the end of the day if they refuse to socialize normally they dont get to just continue their antisocial actions indefinitely because it isn't your fault.

We dont allow serial killers, even ones with diagnosed mental disorders, to just walk the streets killing whoever they want, because we empathize with their situation.

Well, it is because they have been weak and couldn't do anything about it. This is how history has generally worked. Strong "tribes" conquer weak ones and take their land and resources. There are thousands of "tribes" that no longer exist because they were weak. No one is asking some extinct Bedouin or Amazonian tribe to introspect what they did wrong to cause this to happen to themselves.

There is nothing extraordinary about the history of Jews being kicked out of places. The extraordinary part of the Jewish tribe's story is they managed to live on the edges of the tribes that conquered them and keep much of their culture intact, and after thousands of years of this very improbably created a strong, thriving, functional nation for themselves, including resurrection of a dead language.