Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Saying "I cut down 30% of civilian casualties" is a huge brag. In what world is it not?
As Victor pointed out, the majority of bombs were not precision. Imagine if none of them were. Yes, that would result in more unnecessary deaths.
The precision bombs are NOT being targeted at civilians intentionally. Prove that statement. The closest you could get to this is that Hamas is using human shields and sometimes Israel decides to hit the target anyways. This is not the same as intentionally targeting civilians imo. Either way precision would save lives in this situation as well.
Ofc they are. Refaat was a civilian. The 2 journalists killed in the car a few days ago were civilians.
Again, you don't get such disproportionate death to journalist doctors and civilian leaders without intentionality.
Read this https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassinatio...
Do you know about the 2k pound strike that supposedly killed a single Hamas leader? Or do I need to do the research for you? It also killed like 100 civilians. This wasn't hidden. They bragged about it.
Oh why am I even asking? Ofc I need to do the work to disprove your baseless and illogical assertions.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news...
I think the onus is on you to prove they aren't. Bc over 90% civilian death rate by conservative estimates sure looks intentional.
I mean ffs the journalists killed in Lebanon months ago was quite obv a deliberate shot at civilians.
A non precision strike could have taken down several apartments on that block. It would not have been able to
surgically targeted the apartment on the second floor where Rafaat was in a 3-storey building, and not the entire building; indicating the apartment was the target and not possible collateral damage.
Do you agree that this means less civilians were killed due to precision?
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
Addressed and this is a horrible policy which I've already condemned. Israel has not been discriminate enough. It does not mean they are intentionally killing civilians, it means Israel is not letting that be enough of a deterrent for their strikes (once again I have condemned this). Precision would once again save lives here.
The article even says so:
As such, there are “cases in which we shell based on a wide cellular pinpointing of where the target is, killing civilians. This is often done to save time, instead of doing a little more work to get a more accurate pinpointing,” said the source.
From the first moment after the October 7 attack, decisionmakers in Israel openly declared that the response would be of a completely different magnitude to previous military operations in Gaza, with the stated aim of totally eradicating Hamas. “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,”
They are killing civilians due to lack of precision. An awful policy that Israel should not be doing.
I just posted about intentionally killing civilians. Refaat was a civilian.
the reporters killed in the car were civilians. the reporters killed in Lebanon were civilians. if I posted about every civilian targeted and killed then this thread would get way more crowded with my posts than it already is.
why are you denying reality?
Yes, I am reading about it now, thanks for the link. It seems I was wrong and Israel has intentionally targeted a purely civilian target, a horrible decision. My overall point that precision saves lives is actually proven by the manner of his death as I outlined above.
Yes, I am reading about it now, thanks for the link. It seems I was wrong and Israel has intentionally targeted a purely civilian target, a horrible decision. My overall point that precision saves lives is actually proven by the manner of his death as I outlined above.
They don’t overall save lives. They overall save lives, some more than others.
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Yes, I am reading about it now, thanks for the link. It seems I was wrong and Israel has intentionally targeted a purely civilian target, a horrible decision. My overall point that precision saves lives is actually proven by the manner of his death as I outlined above.
no it doesnt prove anything. the only argument is that in that single case, if a large dumb bomb was dropped on that building then more people would have died. I dont disagree.
however, my whole argument is that if Israel had access to orders of magnitude less bombs and ammo, then more people would be alive. its not like they are holding back on the dumb bombs. the CNN article said about half of the bombs dropped were "dumb".
they are using every single thing they can get their hands on.
It proves exactly what I said it proves, and what you agree it proves.
The option is not necessarily "a large dumb bomb was dropped on that building". Those bombs do not always hit their targets, they can be off by up to 100 feet. In a crowded place like Gaza that is the difference between hitting (in this case) the correct apartment building or the incorrect one. Worst case scenario is that multiple apartment buildings were destroyed instead of the one floor that was destroyed due to the precision bomb. That's a huge difference.
Israel is not in danger of running out of bombs. So yes, once again your point that if things were different they wouldn't be the way they are is true, but here it's not particularly important because things aren't different, they are the way they are. This is why the decision to pressure Israel to use precision is important, because that's the situation we're in. As horrible as the casualty situation is in Gaza, it would be far far worse without USA pressuring Israel to keep civilian casualties down. This is something that Israel is failing to do despite the pressure, imagine if they had no pressure and were truly unrestrained and without any precision bombs.
If you want to go back years to what if USA had never given them any aid then that's another issue altogether. Once again the alternative is even more grim.
Smart bombs overall kill lives they don’t overall save lives
Take away the smart bombs, what do you think happens?
Israel has been buying US domestic market AR15s cause it’s running out of weapons. I’m sure the same is true for their munitions.
Well since that's what is being compared at the moment that's kind of important.
I framed it extremely clearly. You responded to it with a completely different situation so you likely misread it.
This is exactly what happened. Hamas is by far the least threatening of Israel's major worries. In the event of an attack by one of the larger threats in the area Israel would have responded in a way to discourage anyone else from joining in or attempting such an attack again. This means a lot of destructive power. Precision would not be the goal in such a show of force. An unguided bomb costs something like 5k USD. A precision bomb like a
If the US stopped giving aid the conflicts would stop sooner.
If the us stopped giving aid would the conflicts then kill more people and have more indiscriminate deaths? Doubtful. Once they have to conserve munitions their targets change.
It proves exactly what I said it proves, and what you agree it proves.
The option is not necessarily "a large dumb bomb was dropped on that building". Those bombs do not always hit their targets, they can be off by up to 100 feet. In a crowded place like Gaza that is the difference between hitting (in this case) the correct apartment building or the incorrect one. Worst case scenario is that multiple apartment buildings were destroyed inst
this ****ing Orwellian liberal wants to argue that less bombs somehow means more death.
its insane. maybe USA should be sending Putin a bunch of precision bombs and that would save lives too.
they killed over 30k people of which conservatively 90% are civilians. they have leveled housing on the same order as WW2 carpet bombings. something like 95% of the population are displaced.
and you are going to argue that things would be worse if the USA provided no bombs?
just an absolutely infuriating, insulting, and downright diabolical worldview. more proof that there is absolutely no Western action that you wont deepthroat to compl
LOL. First of all your numbers are nonsense. Second of all, even with your made up numbers Israel could kill this many people with 10 bombs if that was their goal.
Your understanding of what is going on is utterly buffoonish. The truth is if the US didn't supply Israel with the Iron Dome materials, Israel would have been compelled to be much more decisive and aggressive stopping all the rockets. The fact the rockets are generally so innefective (due to materials supplied by the US tax dollar) is why Israel has allowed Hamas to have so many of them and keep firing them.
The irony is if that without US help Gaza would have likely been pacified years ago, because Israel would have had no other choice, and everyone would be better off for it.
If the US stopped giving aid the conflicts would stop sooner.
If the us stopped giving aid would the conflicts then kill more people and have more indiscriminate deaths? Doubtful. Once they have to conserve munitions their targets change.
Israel is not running out of bombs.
If Israel did run out of bombs what would happen?
There's a naive notion both here and in Ukraine that if USA just stopped giving aid then the conflicts would stop. No, they would be far more deadly and have far more indiscrimate killings.
they killed over 30k people of which conservatively 90% are civilians. they have leveled housing on the same order as WW2 carpet bombings. something like 95% of the population are displaced.
and you are going to argue that things would be worse if the USA provided no bombs?
just an absolutely infuriating, insulting, and downright diabolical worldview. more proof that there is absolutely no Western action that you wont deepthroat to compl
90% is not a conservative number.
Yes the numbers are bad. That does not mean they wouldn't be far worse.
If Israel ran out of bombs then many less civilians would be murdered.
they would be far better if Israel had less bombs to drop.
and yes obv 90% is conservative. its probably around 99% tbh. they are not going after Hamas militants. they cant even find them.
one of the reasons the civilian death toll is so high, is bc Israel is frustrated and mad that they are getting ****ed up by the Hamas military. they are taking it out on civilians with field executions, torture, and intentional bombing.
people need to stop saying the bombing is indiscriminate. it is absolutely 100% intentional when they kill entire families.
