Israel/Palestine thread

I would consider 36 vs 20 a lot more

I have been thinking about this, and I am starting to think the real value of Israel to the West is that it acts as a lodestone for the Arab/Muslim world to make -EV decisions fueled by tribalism and racism, allowing us to dominate the region. The more people/groups like Erdogan, the Ayatollah's, Houthi's and Hamas are widely supported in the Arab/Muslim world, simply because they are fighting Israel, the more this works in our favor; because these groups generally really really really suck at leading countries.

In the Arab/Muslim world putting some derivation of the world "Allah" in your name, burning some US flags, and firing some rockets into Israel seems to be a cheat code to be allowed to get into power and stay in power, regardless of how bad you actually are at the job. And really the people hurt the most by this is the Muslim/Arab people themselves, arguably to the benefit of the rest of the world.

If there was no Israel, it seems very likely the Arab/Muslim people would have ended up with some better leaders/govts who were more interested in moving their people forward than Jihad agains the Yahood, which may have made our ability to completely dominate the region much more difficult.

Gonna be real embarrassing for everyone if one of the remaining hospitals is the one housing Hamas's HQ.

It could be that 36 were hit. Dunno. Based on that source it seems somewhere between 23 and 36 have been hit.

Erdogan is not fighting Israel. That's just talk. Turkey is primarily Western aligned and fundamentally on the same side as Israel. Israel is Turkey's 9th biggest market for exports, their militaries operate in coordination in Syria against Assad's forces and their trade includes weapons.

The point of Israel to the West includes a lot of trade now, but strategically it is as a military base near The Gulf, the point of which is to protect oil interests and the rest of trade through the Suez Canal. Without that, western Governments wouldn't care any more about Israel and its wars than they do about Darfur.

Chances are all of them had military hosting abilities and Hamas just moved assets to wherever

I am kinda confused as to why you guys think Hamas would post up in a hospital. they absolutely know by now that the human shields thing doesnt work. Israel will just kill the shield and flesh of children doesnt make a great shield against a JDAM.

Erdogan has extremely aggressive anti-Israel rhetoric and hosts Hamas political/finanical leadership. I have never head anyone argue he is a good leader of the Turkish people. His main MO to maintain power is to just imprison anyone who opposes him; but given the Turkish people's extremely favorable reaction to his anti-Israel rhetoric, it is clear he is getting some social currency from it.

Exactly

Their headquarters are wherever they can hide amongst civilians

if I was Hamas, and I didnt want to die, I am pretty sure the last place I would "hid" would be amongst civilians. those are the first places you guys hit.

hell, I am pretty sure Israel would prefer to kill house full of women and children rather than a Hamas fighter.

An American company gathering data and pushing garbage to profit is different from the Chinese government doing it.

My main complaint about going specifically after tiktok is that no one should have this kind of info and control, so I largely agree with your sentiment. That kind of info and control is far more dangerous in the hands of a hostile government though.

This means Hamas's strategy of using human shields is working too.

Ironically, watching the outpouring of racist, right wing populism in the Arab/Muslim world is making me more trepidatious of the MAGA movement at home. When I see someone like Erdogan or the Hezbollah or Houthi leaders doing some speech about death to the Jews in front of throngs of thousands cheering (and sometimes doing the Sig Hiel), knowing how horribly this is gong to work out; the more this is a warning how much right wing populism generally sucks and how much better neoliberal elites are (even with all their flaws).

Is it, though? It's not at all obvious that Amazon and Facebook are less of a threat to me than the Chinese government spying on my TikTok dances.

OK but isn't this also what someone would say if they just wanted to bomb civilians?

not sure what you mean here

How much data do you have to give to register on tiktok? Is it more than a name and email? Do they verify personal info or can you just make up a fake name, dob and use a throwaway email?

I think it is, but let's assume that you're correct and it's even worse for private American companies to have this information rather than China and Chinese companies to have this info.

Is that an argument against what PW said? "TikTok is a Chinese propaganda / intelligence gathering tool. It could possible be the downfall of American society and I am so serious."

It seems like an argument that it should be banned for foreign governments, and private American companies, and private(ish) foreign companies.

Here's what I said about Hamas's recruitment strategy earlier, I still think it's correct:

If Hamas is going to lose a soldier then they would rather lose a soldier and have as many Palestinian citizens as possible die as well. This is how they win the information war. After Oct 7 support for Israel was extremely high, it wasn't until they started killing civilians that they began losing support.

Try to finish this sentence "Israel shouldn't kill any Palestinian civilians but..."

It's impossible, you automatically lose the argument because entertaining the idea that civilian casualties are inevitable or a necessary evil is a nonstarter. You can look at our conversations itt for good evidence of this too. I tried to argue "Israel shouldn't kill any Palestinian civilians but... if they do so they should limit the number killed as much as possible." You personally called me disgusting for arguing this, even though (imo) this is a very non controversial opinion. As long as Israel is killing Palestinian civilians Hamas's recruitment efforts will be easier and support for Israel will decline. Hamas is incentivized to have as many dead Palestinian civilians per dead Hamas soldier as possible, and the higher ups care about Hamas more than they care about Palestinian civilians. A Hamas leader even went as far as saying that Palestinian civilians were responsible for the civilian deaths of Israelis on Oct 7

Tiktok is a nothingburger and it could be handled with if it were a threat worth caring about but there is a ****ing gargantuan difference between a company like amazon versus China holding sensitive information of us citizens.

I haven't watched the social dilemma since it came about, but it's a great watch. Also the guys were on Rogan and had a great interview. (Apologies if you now have to clean up the thread for talking about Rogan.)

Here is what I recall: They collect IP addresses, all data on videos watched, and all personal messages sent. They also have all info of what you post, so even if you use a fake name most of the younger generation will post a pic of themselves at some point and be identifiable. I also faintly remember that the app has a way to see you while you are using it, but I don't quite recall. From this info alone it doesn't really matter whether or not you give your real info when you sign up.

Some of the strategies of the company are quite sinister as well. The Chinese government realizes that the app's algorithm rots the brain and essentially shuts down the Chinese version of the app after a certain time for children. They also alter the algorithm for Chinese citizens where it will suggest educational info at certain intervals instead of continuing down whatever rabbit hole you're currently in. The American version continually tries to send the user down the death spiral.

Israel claims they have killed 8000-9000 hamas military. Is that true? Do you know they are lying? Even the gaza ministry run by hamas won't say how many of the 24000 are military

So if 1/3 of all the people that Israel has killed have been military, does that mean they are targeting civilians in your opinion?

Im not up on the geography of the Gaza Strip, but if its only about 6 miles by 25 miles and has over 2 million people are there many places at all in there without civilians? Of course Hamas maximizes the risk to civilians by locating in densely populated areas. They consider it a strategic win if the Israelis kill a large number of civilians, creating more outrage and condemnation in the world community.

I think if Israel had a giant phaser like the Star Trek starships that could surgically zap all Hamas without harming any civilians they would. But it looks to me (just my opinion) that the Israeli government has decided that the total destruction of Hamas is in the vital national interest of the country. And as such, the accomplishment of that objective outweighs any amount of collateral death to civilians and any amount of world condemnation. I think they believe it is impossible to destroy Hamas without huge civilian casualties ( I agree with that assessment) and they feel they cannot end this war without destroying Hamas.

So imo the Israelis have made the decision to destroy Hamas whatever the civilian toll is. Not because they desire to kill civilians but because they believe the destruction of Hamas is that important to their existence.

this is conjecture. and it uncovers the latent bias against Palestinians and Muslims. no one would say such a thing about Israel or USA or any Western country. in fact it would get absolutely pilloried.

one could just as easily argue that they are not incentivized to cause civilian death considering that they live within the population and people would blame them and then their power would be deligitimized. not to mention the whole human aspect of getting their family and friend's families to suffer.

my point is that this viewpoint goes unchallenged for a reason. and it would never be used to describe a Western country or Israel. is it dehumanizing to the Palestinians? I think so.

When an Israeli munition kills a Hamas soldier as well as civilians how often do you blame Hamas, how often do you blame Israel?

I think these are bold statements about Hamas and they would require a lot more evidence. they are along the same lines as Browser argued.

as for the Israel's targeting civilians, again I urge you to read the South Africa brief and watch their presentation.

for a primer, much of this thread is presented

its very common in wars where a civilian population is targeted when the enemy cant be found or beaten. its pretty much a staple of guerilla warfare. the enemy wont fight so we kill their women and children. and this environment especially creates that dynamic given the dehumanization for Gazans that has occured throught Israeli society for decades.

I blame Israel all of the time. Under international law an occupying country is not allowed to attack a captive population.

also, I dont think Israel is trying to attack Hamas mainly bc they dont know where the fighters are. if a Hamas fighter dies then it is almost always accidental.