The costs of trans visibility

Right, this study is clearly biased and funded by pro trans institutions for propaganda purposes.

They do agree that its early and there needs to be more study and rigor but to claim that there is "nothing inbetween" is abject bad faith. Please stop rejecting all new information that contradicts your predisposition.

i'm not rejecting anything coordi, i don't think you're actually reading what i wrote

furthermore, i don't think you're actually reading your own supporting evidence, which says "majority" not "unanimous" - which agrees with what i said that there's conflicting data out here - yet you're accusing me of the one flying blind here when it's actuall you because i'm the one saying nothing is reliable because you can find a study that claims whatever you want it to claim - you're then finding the ones that support your claims and ignoring the others while accusing me of doing that which is not what i've done at all

let's actually look at the article
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...

like this is what the "science" is at this stage

they very clearly say their sample and length is too small to have statistical significance, nor do they even know if the patient had changes to their mental health treatement that could have impacted that outcome so can't even knowingly tie it to transitioning = aka the study is not helpful for determing anything

this is one of the larger samples and they found no difference in the prevalence of suicidal thoughts between those who transitioned and those who haven't

another large sample, shows the opposite that those who transitioned are more likely to have suicidal thoughts, i've stated previously that this too is troublesome because there is a strong possibility that those who have more suicidal thoughts in the first place are more likely to take the more extreme measures of transitioning in order to alleviate that - so while the study says it doesn't help, i personally don't think it's a clean study

this one implies that transitioning helps, but the control group is way too small of only 22 of 314 so comparative data is going to be flawed and they even acknowledge the many issues inherent in the study that doesn't account for outside factors

this just goes on and on of one half baked and inconclusive study after another so i'm going to stop repeating myself with pasting the dozens here and you can just read the article yourself

yes, the "majority" seem to infer that it does help to transition but none of those studies individually are good studies that can be relied upon with any authority

i don't think you're trying to post in bad faith, i assume you just read the summary and took it at face value, but if you're going to call out others and accuse them of bs, you should actually read the article that 100% restates and verifies everything i just posted

you look rather foolish now don't you?

also in terms of you "calling me out"

what is this thread going to be where we now all post pictures of us with various trans people and also post their contact information so a mod can independently verify it?

Can you maybe quote the precise thing you think I'm being "dishonest" about? My position isn't age based - I think these decisions should be up to individuals, their families, and their doctors, not to politicians or forum posters. The person who asserted a "go to jail" claim was lozen, and maybe HE should move his position to under 17 instead of under 18, but I have no idea why you think I am being dishonest. I think what you might be struggling with here is conflating the idea of reframing something with dishonesty. I did reframe the "13 year old cut off penis" example and replace it was an example where, as you say, not many people would object. I'm not saying they are the same example or anything, I'm doing this explicitly because the data says my example is a much more representative example than washes

i feel like i was quite clear

bobo disagreed, but he understood the point i made

what exactly did you have trouble understanding?

No, I don't feel foolish, nor do I think I look foolish.

I commented that "regret rates are 1-2%" You commented that "You can't trust those people", and "suicide is indicative of regret"

I then commented that just because you say "You can't trust those people" doesn't imperially prove that you 'can't trust those people' and that you are talking out your ass on the subject

I also commented that Trans people have a higher suicide risk due to chemical and hormone imbalances as well as societal discrimination. This is important to the point you think you are making that suicide in transitioned individuals is 'indicative of regret'. That statement is literally you talking out your ass and ignoring the predisposition for trans people to be above risk for suicide due to the before mentioned biological and societal reasons.

You then claim studies show that suicide risk goes up, so I post a study that shows "majority of studies show risk goes down"

Which of course you rejected those facts with a long winded post where you cap your point off by saying "I have trans friends" or whatever.

So I dunno if you have too many conversations going on at once or what but you keep sidestepping the real point to reject the facts and that is why I am calling you out.

Hope that is clear now

No my position is very clear if your 18 your an adult I would like to see 21 but there are many things you can do as an adult at the age of 18 .

i've been quite consistent that we don't know anything and there's also studies which show the opposite but none of the existing studies are worth anything

what can't be refuted is that they are still killing themselves post transition

some of them do detransition

that's all

Well, I agree that is clear - and is what I suspect in my exchange with rickroll.

I'm still curious why you think a breast reduction for a well supported 17.5 year old trans boy (there ya go chillrob!) deserves jail but think it is absurd to compare to a breast enhancement for a 17.5 year old wannabe model. Why the asymmetry?

i would personally be against both being allowed to do it before turning 18

however, i think it's disingenuous to imply that augmenting a naturally occurring thing is the same as ripping out the foundation and building something wholly new entirely

for example, if a black person with vitiligo wants to get their skin color changed to a darker pigment, that's a very different scenario than if a white or asian person underwent the same procedure in order to have black skin ducy?

which jfc people are terrible as this is the first search suggestion when i was trying to recall the name of when they have pigmentation issues

i'm still unclear what it is about what i wrote that you are confused about, if you could respond to that it would be helpful, otherwise i don't understand why you even began the conversation if you're just going to ignore it and move on when someone asked for clairification

a 17 year old black person with vitiligo wants skin darkening then sure

a 17 year old white person wants a skin darkening treatment then let's hold off a bit on that one and see how they feel about it at 18

i want to clarify this

we don't care about whether they are like "ah shucks i wish i didn't do that" what we care about is treating the underlying issues that cause such strife that suicide is considered a reasonable option - afterall, a lot of the posts here end with "killing themselves" so that's the central theme and measurement we use as a milestone of success or failure

thus anyone who either committed suicide or detransitioned would both be held equally as evidence that transitioning was not the gto solution in their specific instance

it would be presumptuous to believe those who committed suicide regretted their transition, if anything, I would posit that it was likely reassuring to them that they have tried all available options before giving up

i should have been clearer about that and not labeled it the "regret column" but the "failure of transitioning column" of which regret and suicide are venn diagram subset

this really isn't about whether or not they regret it or not, what an adult chooses to do with their body and whether or not they later choose to undo is completely up to them

the main crux of the issue, and more importantly, why we are debating this at all, is because certain parties are promoting child transition under the premise that a transitioned child is one who is rescued from despair

i am am simply stating that there's no solid evidence confirming that whatsoever and we're getting into pseudoscience and projection and when young children and their parents are told that "this works on all but 2%" well that's not grounded in fact. It's 2% who've made the efforts to undo it, the amount who regret it and aren't undoing due to physical cost, body logistics (how many times can you transform genitalia and have something functional), and sunken cost fallacy that assuredly the number who did not benefit and even outright regret it surely much larger.

Not to mention that we're still so early that there just hasn't been enough time. Many things have a honeymoon period, most relationships have that 7 year itch, which is an absolutely genuine thing backed by science (my own collapsed at year 7 so anecdotally that's also close to home for me and something I've read a lot of academic studies upon because I definitely thought it was nonsense my whole life but definitely "felt it" and at 7 years you're just kind of at, is this really the person I want to be with for the rest of my life or is it time to jettison?)

being all about something which is a life altering event for the first initial years and later noping the f out is very typical human behavior, we do that with our partners, we do that with our careers, we can very well end up doing that with our genders as well

Most of our operating sample is brand new and still under the honeymoon phase

and it's only going to get bigger

which is why we shouldn't be saying "oh let the children transition it's what they need" because we genuinely have no idea what lays ahead in the future and no child should ever undergo such a dramatic and life altering event that could just be a phase and very possibly won't alleviate the problem at all

I'm assuming a large share of that strife stems from them (of age or not) being discouraged to exist as they'd like. This also doesn't seem like something that goes away post transition. There is no practical fix to this problem that doesn't involve a larger number and visibility of trans people as societal norms and social acceptance needs to progress far from where it is now. It's pretty ok now to openly hate Trans people and say Transphobic things.

To the second point that I've left in quotes, could it be that your bias is oversimplifying what the process of a child reaching the point of decision to transition looks like? I don't actually know what it looks like, it just makes it difficult to take you seriously to simplify the mindset of the other side of the fence to what you did when describing the situation as such a weighty one

Doorbread, I wanted you to know I love you as a person. That’s all.

the main issue with this theory is it that it's just a theory

and importantly, we have an amazing control group of thailand where trans are accepted into society without any friction

yet in thailand, trans kill themselves at a similarly higher proportion compared to the rest of the population as we find in the west

i think the evidence points more to it being, the kind of person who feels they are born the wrong gender is inherently going to have a lot issues going on

furthermore, i think a lot of trans activism in the west does more harm than good, instead of just trying to find acceptance, they are forcing the rest of the population to pretend like it's offensive to say "pregnant women" and we all need to list our pronouns on our business cards

i think the pushback in the west is not against how trans people are living their lives, but rather how trans people are telling everyone else how they must live - and if not they are hateful bigots

people like lia thomas are not just trying to live their best life, they are making themselves antagonists and villains and ultimately doing more harm to their cause than good

lia's own teammates were against her swimming with them, as a group they wrote a letter to the school asking for her not to be on the team because of competitive disadvantage - this isn't a "people are against lia because they hate trans" it's about fair competition and her own teammates didn't want her

most of "trans activism" here in the west is not about accepting trans people at all, it's about distorting reality and insisting we exclusively say "pregnant people" it's cultural bullying and "karen behavior" not a plea for acceptance

This, this, this.

I'm sure there are many people out there who are simply concerned about kids being harmed, and nothing else. And I can understand some of those concerns. But I think what a lot of those people are not realizing is that what is happening right now, under the guise of "saving the children", is a whole lot of harm. There is a growing negative environment for LGBTQ+ youth that is fueled by not just a lack of acceptance, but what would seem to be outright bigotry and hatred. And those latter terms, I'm not using lightly on anyone who has any concern - I'm talking about people like the Oklahoma politicians that wanted to ban all gender affirming care until the age of 26. Where could that possibly be coming from other than bigotry?

If we're truly concerned about kids, then we should be extremely worried about the millions of kids affected by this growing negativity, intolerance, and hate, and ask ourselves if creating such an environment is a sensible way to address concerns about the 832 kids that study shows had surgery over 3 years. Might there not be a better way, like determining if those 832 surgeries were all necessary, whether they accomplished what they set out to, and see if there even is a problem? And if there is one, deal with it in a better way than just having legislators who have no ****ing idea about any of the issues involved, just dropping blanket bans on any gender-affirming care at all for anyone under the age 18 (or older in some states)?

How some people who are worried about kids aren't concerned about this environment that is being created is completely ****ing beyond me.

Putting the no true Scotsman aside for one moment, if we *truly* cared about kids we would want to protect them from transphobic bigots and gender-affirmative "healthcare professionals".

this, there's a certain subset of the poster here who view this in binary terms and that needs to cease before anything productive can move forward

While they are certainly more socially accepted than most places, to say without friction is just false.

And I dunno where you are getting suicide data but Thailand doesn’t track sexual orientation of suicide victims so unsure how you could know the statistics

And people fantasizing about 13 year old dicks getting chopped by off

To first bolded, what evidence? Suicide rates for LGBTQ+ are higher across the board than those who don't identify and the sample size is exponentially larger.

I will also push back a bit on your perception of trans activism. I'm a terminally online male who has gotten things wrong and have never been made to feel less than by people who would have every right to be upset. The sound bites I hear are from people who do exist and who's ideals may not align 1 to 1 with my own. Those sound bites are also only pushed onto me by people who hate trans people, not the community at large. I promise you that most of trans activism is not trying to control you and that most people would prefer to just be left alone. I'm theorizing again, and you're free to point that out if you want, but you're naive if you think otherwise

I think this idea that trans people are telling others how to live comes from propaganda around the pronouns. A tiny portion of the community made a big deal about pronouns and then bigots made it a billion times bigger than it was.

you may want to double check that again, you're so quick to dismiss what i write as nonsense that you make absolutely untrue statements repeatedly

like seriously, you know i used to be a professional researcher, i can speed read and know how to find data efficiently, i'm not winging it here at all unlike you clearly are doing

this is getting embarrassing, you should take a breather because you're better than this usually and a very smart person and i honestly think you're posting while inebriated right now - otherwise how else could i explain this level of obtuse for an otherwise intelligent and articulate poster who i generally hold in high esteem?

https://www.mims.com/specialty/topic/hal...

title says it all, half have contemplated suicide, but how do they know because according to you the data doesn't exist? grand transphobic conspiracy strikes again amirite

https://indigo.uic.edu/articles/thesis/S...

what's that? this study agrees with other thai studies? but i thought this was untracked? so weird, grand conspiacy of the transphobes strikes again

https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomed...

and bobo & doorbread you may want to check this one, it found the paradox that in SEA the suicide rate was higher despite much broader acceptance (although a little wonky because they also included australia and whichever other countries of "oceania" they included which could have been muslim places

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...

again, more lying researchers who

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35599251...

more lying researchers using fake data that doesn't exist according to you

this one is pretty grim 1/6th of them in Thailand have attempted suicide, not contemplated but attempted, mind you, this is a survey of the survivors as well so it's going to be an artificially low number

read the study above i dogeared for you and bobo

but for real, i think you're projecting based on your source of inputs is going to be predominantly from a bunch of genuinely terrible people who are bigoted transphobes - like some of the accounts that don't last very long around here, even when they are "supporting" what I write and agreeing with me, I'd rather they didn't because it removes credibility because they are genuinely hateful people and I hate that you guys associate me with them based on generally being on the same side but not at all in agreement of the particulars

those are not people who's point of view on the economy or the housing market would impact your beliefs in those matters, so why would you defer to them for this?

they are just a bunch of idiots to be ignored - outlets like infowars suddenly demand consideration when they talk about trans stuff?

tune it out hateful rhetoric, look at objective facts - that's my suggestion

Take a breath man.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...

This study references the study you linked. They polled 1400 lgbtqi (not trans specifically) and 16% had attempted suicide and 50% had considered it.