The costs of trans visibility

It is not a straw man. The most common types of "gender affirming surgeries for people 12-18" as per the prior quote are 17 or 18 year olds having top surgery. Lozen made this fantastical claim about jailing all such doctors. That might seem reasonable in washoe's imagined scenario of 13 year olds chopping off their penises, but I gave the example of a common case which is much more reasonable sounding.

As to your, uh, devils advocate attempt, we've previously documents in these threads quite a number of studies showing positive outcomes on mental health from transitioning. Regardless, this is a decision not for you and I to adjudicate, but for a trans youth to work with their family and medical professionals on.

You didn't answer the question. Try again.

here, bobo and uke.
I want you to listen to this very carefully so you know.

amen to that brother. but it starts much earlier as they start the procedure at age 12 or 10 ikd even know... the end goal of this procedure is gender surgery of course eventually. people dont get that a lot.

it was a dishonest and manipulative scenario where they took someone who was nearly 18 anyway and made it about splitting the difference between doing it now or waiting a few months until actually 18

nobody on earth is putting in laws against doing that until 18 to stop someone who turns 18 in 3 months from getting it done now, nowhere and no time were law makers concerned about someone nearly 18 getting it done

the focus has always been on preventing it from happening to much younger children

thus it's a dishonest argument built upon a strawman in order to make 18 seem like a stupid and arbitrary deadline that changes nothing

fact you don't see it that way as well is troubling, afterall, i thought we're in this together as we're now both the same team transphobic bigots because you horrendously believe it matters whether or not a girl has a penis instead of doing what any straight man is supposed to do and love all women unconditionally regardless of what they are packing downstairs because then you are denying that trans people exist otherwise

its all eyewash, this talk about being able to reverse at any time too and especially. detrans community feel and report that they felt like being in a cult and being brainwashed and lied to. the procedure can and will start from a very early onset, so wheather they cut it off at age 12 or 17 is irrelevant, as they are really doing it chemically and mentally at a early stage and then keep the finger on it. that is why detrans. end themselves, according to the swedish study apr. 10 years after transitining, when they realized their mistake. when they right says they cut penises off 13 year old, they are not exactly wrong of course. wheather they mean literally, chemically or mentally.

As someone whose xitter feed only shows me my crypto and rage follows, was disappointed to check into this thread to see it largely mirroring that.

Praising Dave Chapelle’s commentary on trans issues, a Matt Walsh video, Lozen piggybacking off the post about **checks notes** the teenage orgasm, from someone who is clearly not all there, are all bottom of the barrel for something that actually needs thoughtfulness to be properly addressed

Nobody should engage you with anything but scrutiny Lozen. Any good source or argument you bring to the table doesn’t change who it is coming from, much like your favorite anti-trans commentators

There is plenty of literature available that points to "regret rates" being 1-2% among transitioned individuals, which seems incredibly low considering the average person is miserable and depressed.

Would think more miserable transitioned people would blame their transition for being miserable than that.

Ultimately this "they are brainwashing your 12 year old child to chop off their dick" stuff is propaganda to make you feel very passionate about something that ultimately will have little to no affect on 99.5% of the population.

A quick google suggests that this is incorrect.

you wouldn't chalk up those who transition and still commit suicide as for all intents and purposes also in the regret column?

we're also way too early to have any real data on regret rate since it's both super early and highly subjective where answers are unreliable

for example, it's a well known and studied phenomenon that the more invested someone is in a purchase or project, the less likely they are to have buyers remorse because the mind is preternaturally conditioned to find copium rather than admitting you made a bad decision

just think of all the bad beat stories where it wasn't really a bad beat but rather how the played the wrong poorly

so we're not dealing with reliable narrators asking people if they regret transitioning much the same we're not going to get genuine answers asking married couples if they regret marrying their spouse - while most are likely answering honestly, many will lie, some of them will not even be aware they are even lying

This is actually very true. Once your penis is removed or reversed or structured differently not sure what is correct. Its not like whoops I changed my mind I want it back and a child should never be allowed to make that decision especially in a medical system guided by profit even with a parents approval .

We generally call people under 18 a 'boy', not a 'man'. Your bias is showing.

I thought no one could beat the "we are doing medical procedures on kids that can't dress themselves" routine, but your inability to admit you are wrong about "cutting off 13 year old penises" is a work of art.

The youngest case on record or reported I think is 14 for gender affirming surgery. Not sure what was cut off

The case I described is not some esoteric fringe case, it is the majority of such cases of people in 12-18 which is already a tiny fraction.

Lozen was the one suggesting jail. So I posed a question with the assumptions as "good" as possible to see if he ALWAYS thought jail, or whether he was overstepping and actually there were some cases of under 18 where it seems reasonable. You are scoffing that nobody would ever say no to that - well I would hope not! He hasn't retracted his statement however.

This is akin to saying "all statistics are irrelevant, when I want them to be"

Have you had a single conversation with even one transitioned person? Are you just completely talking out your ass?

Gee, I wonder if being born with chemical and hormone imbalances and facing horrific discrimination has anything to do with increased suicide risk

I dunno, why don't we ask the thread experts on how Trans people feel

And just to be clear, this isn't people who have transitioned, this is just people who identify as trans

no this is more dishonesty, waiting a few extra months in order to prevent a 14 year old is worth it

no, this is bs

we're not using hard data but interview responses which everyone knows are highly subjective and prone to error/bias/manipulation

i'm not larping here, this is well established in the greater social science meta - it feels like you are just looking for excuses to baselessly dismiss and disregard a la oreo

and yes, you clearly haven't been paying much attention here, my time in asia where they are far more progressive and open and accepting of all of this easily puts me among those itt who know and socialized the most with trans people

Can you maybe get through a post without accusing people of dishonesty? The data I showed was that most surgeries in the 12-18 category were 17 and 18 year olds and that was mostly top surgeries. The original point of this comment was that we have yet to actually have a single example of the original "13 year old cutting off their penis" that launched this discussion. I don't know what you think is "dishonest", but I'm trying to reframe the contention around the thing that is commonly happening. If lozen wants to follow your logic and jail doctors for 14 year olds and not jail them for 17 year olds, he can say that. But right now his statement includes 17 year olds.

They sure are, aren't they? And yet, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of articles about 13 year olds with "cut off penises". Have you considered that there could be some political hyperbole at play?

Well, I think that's one point on which we might have to agree to disagree. I think there can be allowance for mature kids, with complete consultation with medical experts, to make some decisions for themselves with regard to this. That doesn't mean I'm OK with 13 years old and "cut off penises" (which I have my doubts whether they even exist), and I'm not suggesting that there is some given age where it's OK for any minor in any situation to do whatever they want. Just that this is an issue that would benefit from a little more nuance than no treatment of any kind until the day you turn 18.

I actually discussed a study some time ago that I thought did a pretty good job of showing us some useful numbers. I'll requote part of my post here:

you are being dishonest

i don't think you're even aware though

why not move your position to 17 then? i don't think many of the 18 crew would object to that

there needs to be a line somewhere and as a result some are always going to have to arbitrarily wait a few extra months

so talk about where the line should be, don't engage in worthless whataboutism simply to try to sabotage the idea that an age limit is not needed

either say you're ok with any age at all, or state at which age you think the line should be - don't play games like you have been

Again, there is no strawman, because uke was arguing against precisely what lozen suggested. I can see your point on dishonest and manipulative, and although I don't agree with that either, at least it's not incorrect by definition.

The reason I don't think it's dishonest and manipulative is because what lozen suggests is using the very same approach that many states are when it comes to transgender issues - blanket prohibitions, rather than simply ensuring any small number of problems are dealt with more directly. You suggest that "nowhere and no time were law makers concerned about someone nearly 18 getting it done", but that's quite clearly not true. First of all, if that's not their concern, why make that the law? If it's 13 and 14 year olds they're worried about, then make the law about anyone under 15. But more importantly, there are multiple states who have considered passing laws that don't allow young adults to have gender-affirming care:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/gender-affi...

More specifically, a bill in Oklahoma originally would have prevented "anyone under the age of 26—a full eight years beyond the widely accepted threshold for adulthood—from accessing gender-affirming medical care".

[URL="https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/oklahoma-gender-affirming-care-ban-bill"]Oklahoma Bill Would Ban Gender-Affirming Care for People Under 26, Could Force Some to Detransition
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That's how the bill was initially filed. Thankfully, it was changed before it passed. So no, it absolutely is not true that "nobody on earth is putting in laws against doing that until 18 to stop someone who turns 18 in 3 months from getting it done now, nowhere and no time were law makers concerned about someone nearly 18 getting it done". I think you greatly underestimate the way some people view this issue. I hope they are a very small minority, but unfortunately they seem to have a very outsized voice these days.

you're a gentleman and a scholar good sir

and yes, i agree that anything banning someone 26 and under is a bit much, perhaps i shouldn't have used so much hyperbole

I'm sorry man but it really seems like you are talking out your ass.

If you really care about elevated suicide rates in Trans people then you need to do some more research. There are biological and societal reasons why Trans people are higher suicide risk than general population. After transitioning, studies shows that risk goes down.

And saying "I don't believe you" doesn't accomplish anything.