Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
This isn’t accurate. The Holocaust gave them trauma and much of their reaction is explainable through that lens. I’m not saying it is justified, but it is explainable and not nefarious. The fact that you claim the above does set off a lot of alarm bells.
I'm just going by their own words.
And I'm kinda skeptical of the trauma a 19 yr old IDF soldier has endured.
I don't think that you would allow that a 19 yr old Qassam fighter on Oct 7 was not nefarious and those kids experienced more trauma since birth that anyone could imagine.
Which Arab nations do you think will be most the excited to serve as prison guards for Palestine?
The concept of "prison" is silly here. The vision for a rebuilt Gaza is beachfront, malls, markets, schools, movie theatres etc. In a post-Hamas world, there's no reason that Gaza not have this. There's also no long term need for a blockade in a post Hamas world.
Does it have borders? Like every country, sure. Will Israel grant work permits for Gazans again in Israel? It will take a long time. How long? I guess until trust is rebuilt. Nobody can control what Egypt will do on the other border. But a rebuilt Gaza can be an amazing place in a post-radical Islam world. It's going to depend if the players involved can create enough buy in from the people, and enough protection for the new leadership.
I don't know if prisons that have beaches and malls and such. But if that's a prison for you, ok.
Rafiki, Mets…not sure why you even engage this individual. He’s delusional, and clearly hates Jews.
If any doubt existed, his claim that the NYTimes (historically anti-Israel) was a Zionist propaganda machine erased it. The rapes didn’t happen, but every bit of news from Hamas is taken as fact.
He’s a textbook anti-Semite and a terrible person. Don’t even bother with him,
Just my $0.02
And another hot take. The rapes absolutely did happen. How do I know? Because everywhere in the world across the entire timeline of human history, when men have waged war they have raped. It doesn’t matter which side they were on- good or evil- they all did it. Period end of discussion. I will not be taking questions.
No. You have paraphrased and editorialized quite a bit in this thread, which has made me reticent to view you as an ally. I’d rather side with Mets than someone with antisemitic biases.
I've never been your ally and I never will be. I stand for truth and evidence. You just make up **** about rape and genocide apologia.
No. You have paraphrased and editorialized quite a bit in this thread, which has made me reticent to view you as an ally. I’d rather side with Mets than someone with antisemitic biases.
An ally for what? That's a military term.
I think being able to assess each situation individually would be better than grouping them into teams like a sports ball competition. Joining teams and throwing out the rest as certainly played a role in this whole disaster.
Rafiki, Mets…not sure why you even engage this individual. He’s delusional, and clearly hates Jews.
If any doubt existed, his claim that the NYTimes (historically anti-Israel) was a Zionist propaganda machine erased it. The rapes didn’t happen, but every bit of news from Hamas is taken as fact.
He’s a textbook anti-Semite and a terrible person. Don’t even bother with him,
Just my $0.02
Honestly I got tired of the Trump "firehose of lies" method he uses. There's no possible way to impact him. But I do feel like a few people with one foot on either side of the line here got to see some of his lies exposed. Obviously I know what he is and what he's doing.
An ally for what? That's a military term.
I think being able to assess each situation individually would be better than grouping them into teams like a sports ball competition. Joining teams and throwing out the rest as certainly played a role in this whole disaster.
An ally in terms of someone whose views I would align myself with and defend in this thread.
While I find myself mostly agreeing with Victor’s sentiments, I cannot condone some of the troubling undertones and broad brush strokes he has made during the course of these debates.
My family is Jewish and anti-Zionist, but some of the statements he has made have been worrying to say the least, and personally dangerous at worst. There should be a clear delineation between discussing Zionism, the Israeli government, and the Jewish population as a whole. I do not see that in his posts, and it’s problematic for me.
And as far as the raping goes, Gerda Lerner (Jewish) wrote this:
“The practice of raping the women of a conquered group has remained a feature of warfare and conquest from the second millennium B.C. to the present. It is a social practice which, like the torture of prisoners, has been resistant to "progress", to humanitarian reforms, and to sophisticated moral and ethical considerations. I suggest this is the case because it is a practice built into and essential to the structure of patriarchal institutions and inseparable from them. It is at the beginning of the system, prior to class formation, that we can see this in its purest essence.”
Where is the lie? Wherever men wage war, they rape.
I've been pretty clear that it's the Zionists I have a problem with. Sometimes I have used the term Israelis interchangeably but I will be more careful. I've never said anything about Jewish people as a whole other that I view them the same as any other group meaning they are capable of being evil and good depending on the situation.
And even the term Zionist can be used as a dog whistle so if you want to read something into it then you will.
I've been pretty clear that it's the Zionists I have a problem with. Sometimes I have used the term Israelis interchangeably but I will be more careful. I've never said anything about Jewish people as a whole other that I view them the same as any other group meaning they are capable of being evil and good depending on the situation.
And even the term Zionist can be used as a dog whistle so if you want to read something into it then you wil
I will believe you and take your word. Only I urge you to be more cautious in your framing. Thank you for taking time to consider my position.
And as far as the raping goes, Gerda Lerner (Jewish) wrote this:
“The practice of raping the women of a conquered group has remained a feature of warfare and conquest from the second millennium B.C. to the present. It is a social practice which, like the torture of prisoners, has been resistant to "progress", to humanitarian reforms, and to sophisticated moral and ethical considerations. I suggest this is the case because it is a practice bu
The lie is in the allegations of the NYT articles and the Israeli media. Rape may have occurred. But not in the way it was described and not as a planned measure.
I will believe you and take your word. Only I urge you to be more cautious in your framing. Thank you for taking time to consider my position.
Ok I appreciate your good faith and apologize for my hostility. Most people don't give me such consideration. I will try to act accordingly due to this.
No. You have paraphrased and editorialized quite a bit in this thread, which has made me reticent to view you as an ally. I’d rather side with Mets than someone with antisemitic biases.
So you are telling me the poster who is "critically supportive" of the nation whose slogan is "a curse upon the Jews," identifies as Nazis (at least the antisemitic part), practices literal slavery and ranks dead last in gender equality might not be an ally.
Someone fetch me my fainting couch.
Arab states governing Gaza, except maybe as small parts of an international coalition, is total fantasy.
They have made no secret of the fact they want nothing to do with Gaza.
PA is the only alternative with any legitimacy. And it will need the support of Israelis and Americans to win the hearts and minds of Gazans
Rafiki, Mets…not sure why you even engage this individual. He’s delusional, and clearly hates Jews.
If any doubt existed, his claim that the NYTimes (historically anti-Israel) was a Zionist propaganda machine erased it. The rapes didn’t happen, but every bit of news from Hamas is taken as fact.
He’s a textbook anti-Semite and a terrible person. Don’t even bother with him,
Just my $0.02
I have like 8 people in this thread on ignore already, he at least is trying to discuss and hasnt called me a Nazi yet
But he's definitely shown his true colors
Arab states governing Gaza, except maybe as small parts of an international coalition, is total fantasy.
They have made no secret of the fact they want nothing to do with Gaza.
PA is the only alternative with any legitimacy. And it will need the support of Israelis and Americans to win the hearts and minds of Gazans
The saudi deal will have a plan for 2 state solution in it. They all want it to work. Putting pa in charge with no outside military presence will probably not lead to a stable government
It could be the PA. But there needs to be an outside military there especially if Israel is expected to lower their border restrictions
The court just said pretty please try to kill a few less civilians.
So you are telling me the poster who is "critically supportive" of the nation whose slogan is "a curse upon the Jews," identifies as Nazis (at least the antisemitic part), practices literal slavery and ranks dead last in gender equality might not be an ally.
Someone fetch me my fainting couch.
I dont think you understand what "critical support" means. it means to be critical of an entity but still support certain actions or goals.
so I support the blockade but I am critical of the whole Jew hating thing.
The new york times has always been a shitty newspaper.
