Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Neither side is a monolith and both sides had people pursuing peace and people pursuing war. At the same time Jews were inviting Arabs to stay they were also doing this:
So now, pretend like I'm 8 years old, and explain to me why a Jewish state is a bad thing. But when you do, I need you to explain:
1) Why so many Muslim states are ok
2) Why you don't spend one minute on any of the Muslim states, assuming they're not ok to you
3) Why you would have an issue with a Jewish state whose aim is to protect one of the most persecuted peoples of all time
A state based on ethnic preference in a mulicultural region is always a bad idea. Should the U.S. become a Christian state? Millions of the people living under the Jewish state (WB and Gaza) are not allowed to vote for the state that controls them. That's bad.
1. Any Muslim state that discriminates against minorities is not okay.
2. I prefer to devote the most energy to criticizing states backed by my government (U.S.), which I am responsible for. For example, the Muslim state of Indonesia was fiercely criticized for its genocidal war against East Timor. Indonesia was armed by the U.S. Morocco's war against the Western Sahara is another colonial war that should be criticized.
3. If it can do it without persecuting a minority, fine. Besides, I think the U.S. is a safer place for Jews than putting them on the frontlines of sectarian warfare. Come here instead.
i dont imagine that the four people who live in idaho would've put up much of a fuss
I'll try to be productive here:
1) What other UN created country does ANYONE disagree with? We've done the Pakistan exercise in this thread before and what it entailed. They were created essentially the same way. Nobody seems concerned for the Hindus of Pakistan. There's no Pakistan outrage and Pakistan threads with thousands of posts and front page CNN coverage.
2) What's the acceptable timeline on indigenous issues? How many years is the am
(To be clear when I wrote devil advocate I meant it in the real sense, IE I am very pro Israel existence as a jewish majority state).
I'll answer 2) mainly, but first let's keep it mind the topic isn't "external powers came and divided existing areas into arbitrary lines and that can cause some problems but we have to accept there is no optimal solution".
Topic is, an unicum I think, people that had nothing to do with an area were sent there from around the world and helped Internationally to set up a sovereign state, in an already inhabited place.
I don't think there is a single other example of that happening before or after.
Nothing to do with Pakistan or Timor Est or USSR implosion or China annexing Tibet or Taiwan and so on.
Back to 2), it's not about indigenous (as in "previous right to ownership" in some sense) issues.
It's more about "the fact Jews were there 2000 years ago should never have mattered in the slightest because we aren't going to give Milan to France just because it was founded by Celtic groups originally from Gaul".
It's "no one has an ancestral right to that land, but if anyone does it's the most recent occupier before international action to create an artificial, preciously non existent, country with people from abroad".
So the topic is only about today.
Today you have a group of people sharing common ancestry and language, which doesn't have an actual state for whatever past reasons, while occupying a very well defined area ( actually two, non touching but close areas, Gaza and WB).
What do we want to do with those people? The normal answer would be let them secede from whatever entity they are currently incorporated into and self govern.
But the israelian state operated for decades to make that exceptionally hard, if not impossible (settlements).
So the common claim (in the west) isn't much about a legitimacy for Israel to exist, it's more about why on earth should we legitimate only one state in the area, even with present time circumstances there should be 2
Now To be clear, Jews are indigenous to Israel, that's why Jesus (a Jew) was born there. That's why "Judea" was called what it was called.
That gets it backwards. Judea/judah etc as a term for that region that already existed and the origins might well be lost to history. But the words Judaism and Jews derived from the name of the place and was one religion that started there among other semetic cults/belief systems. Because Judaism still happens to exist, it's role in the history of the region gets overstated by modern people.
A state based on ethnic preference in a mulicultural region is always a bad idea. Should the U.S. become a Christian state? Millions of the people living under the Jewish state (WB and Gaza) are not allowed to vote for the state that controls them. That's bad.
1. Any Muslim state that discriminates against minorities is not okay.
Ok but then let's freeze here, because you all knew that I knew that you'd all say this.
It's fine for you to write the words. "I don't think any of these Muslim discriminatory states are ok".
But this does not translate anywhere in your actions, your efforts, your time spent per issue. And because of this cumulative effect of all of you doing this (and by you I mean everyone out there), Israel becomes the kettle of frogs where the water temperature is constantly being increased.
Do all of you understand that if you spent 10% of your time on Israel, 10% on Iran, 10% on Yemen, 10% on Syria, and on like this, we'd be looking at a totally different issue? And we might not even have this thread?
This is what I've not seen any of you explain properly. This ONE, you put under a microscope that turns it into the geopolitical boogeyman. Because EVERYONE does.
20 years ago people would say "well it's because the Israelis most resemble us, and they should know better". Although it was an outrageous excuse, at least it was an excuse. "They should know better" is what we used to get. It at least humored us with some "plausible" reason as to why the others all got the pass as it related to actual actions.
Do all of you understand that if you spent 10% of your time on Israel, 10% on Iran, 10% on Yemen, 10% on Syria, and on like this, we'd be looking at a totally different issue? And we might not even have this thread?
This is an incredibly dumb metric, and we could make all kind of unfair inferences about people using it. There's nothing in Bill's post history that should lead you to believe he's a fan of Islamic ethnostates.
That gets it backwards. Judea/judah etc as a term for that region that already existed and the origins might well be lost to history. But the words Judaism and Jews derived from the name of the place and was one religion that started there among other semetic cults/belief systems. Because Judaism still happens to exist, it's role in the history of the region gets overstated by modern people.
Dude Judea is Yahuda, A Hebrew name lol.
Yehudah was a son of Jacob, he was eventually given the name "Israel" (and we get to the 12 tribes). They eventually form the Tribe of Judah, gets us to the Kingdom of Judah.
This is an incredibly dumb metric, and we could make all kind of unfair inferences about people using it. There's nothing in Bill's post history that should lead you to believe he's a fan of Islamic ethnostates.
My point is that If you have 15+ countries you feel are causing issues, but you obsessively focus on one (the Jew one), maybe it's a you issue.
Dude Judea is Yahuda, A Hebrew name lol.
Yehudah was a son of Jacob, he was eventually given the name "Israel" (and we get to the 12 tribes). They eventually form the Tribe of Judah, gets us to the Kingdom of Judah.
Lol dude that's a creation myth. Rome was called Rome before the myth of Romulus was invented.
My point is that If you have 15+ countries you feel are causing issues, but you obsessively focus on one (the Jew one), maybe it's a you issue.
People are focused on Israel because it's in the process of killing tens of thousands of people and it's been at the forefront of global news, not because everyone is an antisemite. This is just another cheap whattabout deflection.
[QUOTE=Luciom]it isn't a problem to have homogeneous religious/ethnic states[/QUOTE]
Lemme stop ya right there friend because it definitely is and regardless of who
My point is that If you have 15+ countries you feel are causing issues, but you obsessively focus on one (the Jew one), maybe it's a you issue.
There is a very close political relationship between USA and Israel, so it is reasonable for US citizens to focus more on Israel than some other countries. I don’t doubt some people are motivated by straightforward anti-semitism as well.
It's a complete nonstarter. The US was not going to give up land and 2 senators to the Jewish people. There would have been mass rioting and kristallnacht II in NYC.
The US in 2024 is having a big debate over whether it's cool to install razor wire to shred Catholic immigrants trying to come in, the notion that 1940's USA would have rolled out the red carpet for Jews setting up a homeland here is absurd on its face.
lads it doesn't have to be a red carpet situation to be better than 'surrounded by a quarter of a billion people, a significant minority of which think that killing jews is their highest possible calling'
Lol dude that's a creation myth. Rome was called Rome before the myth of Romulus was invented.
the most probable origin is from Rumen [old name for the Tevere (Tiber) river] which itself came from "ruo", to flow.
so in a sense Rome very probably just meant "the City of the River" originally.
lads it doesn't have to be a red carpet situation to be better than 'surrounded by a quarter of a billion people, a significant minority of which think that killing jews is their highest possible calling'
You're asking heavily antisemitic people in the US to create a Jewish state in their country. Why on Earth would they do that?
