Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Which price are you thinking of for WW2?
I really don't think Dresda bombing helped winning the war that much if at all for example
Having Germany and Japan say uncle wasn't a precise science. Day time bombing was suicide, nighttime bombing horribly imprecise. The Germans had been bombing London civilian positions relentlessly for years. So the decisions made on how you could get the Germans to lay down arms reminds me a lot of fighting COVID in real time. It's really easy after the fact to say what was or wasn't necessary, Less obvious when you're in the fight of your generation for the fate of the planet (in the case of WW2).
So I don't know what the right price is to root out radical Islam. It will depend on where Gaza gets eventually. If it gets somewhere great, you'd have to say the price paid was tragically acceptable. You hope so anyway.
Then you're mistaken, and it's spelt 'Dresden'. It was the largest intact centre of munitions production in the Third Reich in February 1945, with over 140 vital war factories engaged in precision light engineering, producing machine guns and ammunition, field radios, field telephones, gunsights, bombsights, U-boat periscopes, bomb fuses, shell fuses, torpedo fuses, torpedo steering and guidance systems, V-1 cruise missile steering and guid
Ye sorry in my first language it's Dresda.
The periphery had significant industrial targets but the city center didn't.
And they firebombed the city center first.
Sorry but it wasn't defensible as a choice even at the time
Dresden bombing in 1945 is much more defensible than Gaza bombing 2023-4.
Looks like Israel will agree to ceaaefire for 6 weeks for hostages but Hamas will not
I'm not taking that side no
I was making a point that it wasn't even americans or British in the camps, but of course i have no problem with the bombing under the circumstances
But I'm still amazed how much you criticize Israel when their own citizens are hostages
And there are American hostages still being held by hamas as well
I'm not taking that side no
I was making a point that it wasn't even americans or British in the camps, but of course i have no problem with the bombing under the circumstances
But I'm still amazed how much you criticize Israel when their own citizens are hostages
And there are American hostages still being held by hamas as well
Still not ok to kill, what, 30000 people by now?
USA had 52 hostages held for more than a year in Iran and all that was done to get them out was sell weapons to Iran to fund Death Squads in Central America. Hmmm, that's not really better, but the Death Squad thing wasn't really a necessary part of the deal.
Back in the day Israel would have made a deal for the hostages and then spent the next decade assassinating actual Hamas leaders instead of just bombing everything and killing 15000 children.
12ish hours till this thread sucks again
Still not ok to kill, what, 30000 people by now?
USA had 52 hostages held for more than a year in Iran and all that was done to get them out was sell weapons to Iran to fund Death Squads in Central America. Hmmm, that's not really better, but the Death Squad thing wasn't really a necessary part of the deal.
You may also remember that the lack of action regarding the hostages in Iran was very unpopular and likely a big part of why the president was not reelected.
I can't imagine any president not taking stronger action in the 45 years since then.
Back in the day Israel would have made a deal for the hostages and then spent the next decade assassinating actual Hamas leaders instead of just bombing everything and killing 15000 children.
This is likely true, and I wonder why that wasn't done. Even if they planned a full scale attack, I don't know why they wouldn't have tried to get the hostages back first.
Back in the day Israel would have made a deal for the hostages and then spent the next decade assassinating actual Hamas leaders instead of just bombing everything and killing 15000 children.
You deal for the hostages while leaving intact the organization that was able to kill 1k Israeli in a day?
Still not ok to kill, what, 30000 people by now?
USA had 52 hostages held for more than a year in Iran and all that was done to get them out was sell weapons to Iran to fund Death Squads in Central America. Hmmm, that's not really better, but the Death Squad thing wasn't really a necessary part of the deal.
Just a little historical correction. The 52 hostages in iran were taken in Nov 1979, and were released by Iran minutes after Reagan was inaugerayted as president in Jan 1981. In April 1980 the US attempted a complex hostage rescue plan, Operation Eagle Claw, but commonly called Desert One, the name of the staging location in Iran where a helicopter and a c130 collided, with the exploaion causing several dead and mission failure. This is usually referred to as the Iran Hostage Crisis.
The arms for hostages deal is known as the Iran-Contra Scandal. The US secretly sold arms to Iran (illegal at the time) in return for Iran's help in getting Hezbollah to release 7 hostages they held. This began around 1981 and went on for a few years. The twist to the scandal was that some working on the NSC staff (including Oliver North) decided to divert money from the Iran sales to fund the Contra rebels in Nicaragua, even though Congress had passed a law prohibiting support to the Contras.
Back in the day Israel would have made a deal for the hostages and then spent the next decade assassinating actual Hamas leaders instead of just bombing everything and killing 15000 children.
loads wrong with this, but the most obvious is that israel's bargaining position was non-existent before they started the process of liquidating hamas
This is likely true, and I wonder why that wasn't done. Even if they planned a full scale attack, I don't know why they wouldn't have tried to get the hostages back first.
They've openly said why.
They don't want to give Hamas or other terror groups a future license to kidnap more. That was the problem with how they handled it the last time. The incentives to kidnap future Israelis become too great.
They've openly said why.
They don't want to give Hamas or other terror groups a future license to kidnap more. That was the problem with how they handled it the last time. The incentives to kidnap future Israelis become too great.
As shocking and apparently immoral as it might look, the correct way for state security regarding hostages is the Putin one when there were hostages in the theater. More than 100 hostages died (out of like several hundreds) when he ordered to storm the building using poisonous gas before.
You signal credibly you will never bend the knee to terrorists and are willing to have all the hostages killed if that's necessary. You don't get blackmailed ever again if they know they face certain death and no positive outcome by detaining hostages.
Not a Putin apologist here to be clear, he is an evil dictator who should be crushed by the west, still that specific dynamic was correct.
Which is also why we should put international law in the matter, international law should make it illegal to negotiate with kidnappers, as everytime a country does negotiate in any way with kidnappers, the security of all countries is compromised, as more people around the world will think kidnapping can yield results.
