Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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"Saudi Arabia: no Israel ties without recognition of Palestinian state"
Yes but the word recognition is vague
Oslo 2 involved Israel recognizing a Palestinian state
I think at this exact moment it will be difficult for Israel to agree to a Palestinian state, but in general most Israelis do not have a problem with it.
I think the big pill that needs to be swallowed is that Israel will not be able to completely get rid of Hamas, and that means the Palestinian state will need to have Hamas representation or else Hamas will be doing everything to ruin relations between that state and Israel.
I doubt if in principal most Israelis would have a problem with a Palestinian state. It's that whole river to the sea thing that throws a spanner in the works.
I think an absolute majority would be ok giving palestinians the strip and a portion of the west bank (after all they already have them) with official statehood, but not jerusalem at all.
Afaik palestinians aren't interested in official statehood under those conditions
I've said this as well. Jerusalem is the biggest issue. Giving up area a and b besides some clear pathways to Jerusalem is something i believe most israelis would favor. And then slowly Giving up area c can be part of the agreement... but there needs to be assurances of israelis safety and paths to Jerusalem
I think at this exact moment it will be difficult for Israel to agree to a Palestinian state, but in general most Israelis do not have a problem with it.
I think the big pill that needs to be swallowed is that Israel will not be able to completely get rid of Hamas, and that means the Palestinian state will need to have Hamas representation or else Hamas will be doing everything to ruin relations between that state and Israel.
I don't think saudi would want hamas in power either. Hamas needs to be exiled
I don't think anyone wants Hamas to be in Palestine except Palestinians.
I think at this exact moment it will be difficult for Israel to agree to a Palestinian state, but in general most Israelis do not have a problem with it.
I think the big pill that needs to be swallowed is that Israel will not be able to completely get rid of Hamas, and that means the Palestinian state will need to have Hamas representation or else Hamas will be doing everything to ruin relations between that state and Israel.
Or Palestinians accept UN help to de-hamasify their state.
I don't see why blue helmets shouldn't be deployed for as long as necessary. They were in Darfur for many years.
I think an absolute majority would be ok giving palestinians the strip and a portion of the west bank (after all they already have them) with official statehood, but not jerusalem at all.
Afaik palestinians aren't interested in official statehood under those conditions
They don't appear to be interested in any conditions as any form of compromise seems to be an alien concept to them.
They don't appear to be interested in any conditions as any form of compromise seems to be an alien concept to them.
So is the biden/us plan to force a 2 state solution in people that don't want it?
I don't think hamas would even sign an agreement that recognizes Israel's right to exist
I don't think hamas would even sign an agreement that recognizes Israel's right to exist
This is a major reason why it's good to have them involved in the government. The political wing does want to be back in the government and if they can only do that by agreeing that Israel has a right to exist then that rids the organization of some of most extreme elements.
It looks like Hamas will exit this more popular than before Oct 7, just acting like they don't exist isn't going to be feasible. Palestinians should have a say in what their state looks like, and telling them they need to pretend their most popular faction isn't there removes a lot of their agency.
I don't think UN has what it takes to police Gaza either. In order to occupy a counter insurgency in an area with 2 million people the amount of troops on the ground needed is far beyond what the UN is capable of putting there.
This is a major reason why it's good to have them involved in the government. The political wing does want to be back in the government and if they can only do that by agreeing that Israel has a right to exist then that rids the organization of some of most extreme elements.
It looks like Hamas will exit this more popular than before Oct 7, just acting like they don't exist isn't going to be feasible. Palestinians should have a say in what t
Which means an agreement cannot be reached
Israel is going to allow hamas in power, not occupy gaza, and be safe? How?
I don't think UN has what it takes to police Gaza either. In order to occupy a counter insurgency in an area with 2 million people the amount of troops on the ground needed is far beyond what the UN is capable of putting there.
If you think in terms of UN resources , the amount needed to manage Palestinians as refugees wouldn't be small either.
I feel it would be a lot better to spend the same amount for blue helmets and the like in Gaza
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-ea...
I would like the hostages home. Curious what the counterproposal is
Hamas proposal is a joke. They basically said
1. Just withdraw
2. Nothing happens to us
3. Release all prisoners, including the monsters captured on Oct 7th
4. And give us lots of money
They basically said give us everything and you get nothing. And btw, we still don’t recognize your right to exist.
They just used every bingo word on the book to write what amounts to an unconditional surrender by Israel.
Just **** all the way off.
People say Hamas cannot be defeated. They have lost 25% of their manpower, 50% of their infrastructire, 95% of their capacity for sending rockets into Israel and 100% of their capacity for repeats of Oct 7 in a couple of months of fighting. Hamas is finished, Victor and friends have to deal with it
Hamas has proposed a ceasefire to quiet the guns in Gaza for four-and-a-half months, during which all hostages would go free, Israel would withdraw its troops from the Gaza Strip and an agreement would be reached on an end to the war.
Yeah hamas does not want to end the war
People say Hamas cannot be defeated. They have lost 25% of their manpower, 50% of their infrastructire, 95% of their capacity for sending rockets into Israel and 100% of their capacity for repeats of Oct 7 in a couple of months of fighting. Hamas is finished, Victor and friends have to deal with it
Yeah
They can't remain in power. They can be exiled of not killed.
But there can be no agreement or end to the war with hamas in power
Period
People say Hamas cannot be defeated. They have lost 25% of their manpower, 50% of their infrastructire, 95% of their capacity for sending rockets into Israel and 100% of their capacity for repeats of Oct 7 in a couple of months of fighting. Hamas is finished, Victor and friends have to deal with it
Their peace “proposal” includes demands for the release of their fighters and lots of money to rebuild and restock.
It’s basically a demand for unconditional surrender with reparations to be paid by Israel.
Hamas is not finished as long as we keep caving in to their tactics of hiding behind civilians and taking hostages.
The proposal is a joke and we need to treat it as such.
So is the biden/us plan to force a 2 state solution in people that don't want it?
I don't think hamas would even sign an agreement that recognizes Israel's right to exist
I think anyone who favours a two state solution means well. I favour it and I don't think it's forcing per se. It's just that Hamas and I suspect the majority of Gazans and Palestinians don't accept Israel's right to exist.
Hamas in government is not a replacement for occupation. It's acknowledging that occupation alone is not going to drive Hamas out; it won't.
Hamas's demands now are outrageous. This is why it's better to deal with the political wing and get rid of the ridiculous extreme elements which are only going to prevent peace and spoil any attempts.
Actually I would argue the progressive left and Arab world have exactly been using the lives of ALL Palestinians as game pieces, and I agree with you it is disgusting. No one who is serious at all thinks that the Palestinians will actually reconquer Israel from the River to the Sea; nor will attempts to do so meet in anything but their death and destruction.
So the continual support of this nihilistic, suicidal mission is the epitome of cyn
I want to talk about this truly excellent post, and discuss what happened to the Jews of Iraq. But before I do, I want to remind you that prior to Oct 7th, every single Gazan, 4 generations deep, was considered a refugee.
They could live anywhere in the world. Some are CEOs, some are actual generals in foreign armies. They are ALL refugees. Over 5 million of them. Why? Because someone in their family tree was affected by a set of criteria in 1948. After that, they all get to be forever refugees no matter the place they actually live or settle. And 200 years after 1948, the UNWRA system might still set it up as so.
Now let's talk the Jews of Iraq, and I hope you have the patience here because it's worth understanding.
After 1945, a lot of the Nazi top brass fled to the middle East. They had TREMENDOUS influence over Arab culture, who were fascinated with the way the Nazis tried to eliminate the Jews. Egypt was a big country for this, but so were Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. In Iraq there was very famous butchering of Jews. Babies sliced in half and thrown in the Tigris. Jews decapitated. It took 2 days for the butchery to stop. It was known as the Farhud (violent dispossession).
When the UN's 1947 vote on Israel finally passed, things just erupted in Iraq, a place Jews had lived peaceful for 2600 years. On July 19, 1948, Iraq amended their penal code against anarchy, immorality, and communism, adding the word “Zionism.” Zionism itself now became a crime, punishable by up to 7 years in prison. As every Jew was thought to be a Zionist, every Jew was thereby criminalized. From there they start arresting Jews in mass. An estimated 130,000 Jews lived in the Iraq of 1949, with about 90,000 residing in Baghdad. The Baghdad Jews owned over 20% of the city! Jewish companies transacted 45 percent of the exports and nearly 75 percent of the imports.
Jewish businesses were boycotted; their owners were arrested. Their homes lost 80% of their value. They were the targets of constant violence. So the Jews slowly began to flee, only the Iraqis didn't want to strengthen Israel in any way. The Iraqis copied the Nazi method and created the Denaturalization Act, where you lose your citizenship the second you attempt to flee. Iraq's government never thought the Jews would leave everything they owned behind and leave, but they did. The Iraqi government, furious over the mass departure, made it clear: These Jews were now stateless refugees.
The Jews left everything behind, I mean everything, 1/5th of Baghdad's property! 120,000 of them arrived in Israel, penniless. Literally the clothing on their backs. Do they ever ask about the right to return, 4 generations later? Are they still considered forever refugees? No. They did what people do, and the started up again and never used bogus eternal refugee status to try and shame Iraq. That's over, it happened a lot time ago.
So after this conflict is done, and it will eventually end, ask yourself what model is the model that gets the Gazans prosperity. Because this ain't it. The 100-200 year refugee story the Palestinians want to cling to isn't helping anyone, least of all themselves.
So Iraqis being dicks gives Israel the moral authority to massacre Palestinians?
