Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Bill do you think the blockade and wall/fences need to exist if a peaceful relationship exists? Are the Christians and Druze behind blockades and fences? There is a chicken and there is an egg. But in this one now someone has to raise their hand and say "ok enough is enough, this forever fight isn't working". That's the only path to lifting blockades, getting work permits, and all the other things that could happen.
"From the River to the S
You're asking the Palestinians to recognize Israel and give up armed struggle, then good things will follow.
The PLO did that. They foolishly gave recognition without receiving it back. They gained more misery and fiercer occupation.
I think if Israel granted a state, that's when the good things would soon follow.
You're asking the Palestinians to recognize Israel and give up armed struggle, then good things will follow.
The PLO did that. They foolishly gave recognition without receiving it back. They gained more misery and fiercer occupation.
I think if Israel granted a state, that's when the good things would soon follow.
Not with hamas in power
West Bank GDP per capita is comparable to that of Jorday, Egypt, and Lebanon, probably higher. Something like 3-5% of Palestinian population in West Bank got work permits in Israel too and there is a decent amount of inter-"state" commerce between Israel and PLO-held West Bank.
Not saying the situation is that great but the portrayal of West Bank as a dystopian internment camp is a bit detached from reality on the ground, especially given that a significant % of West Bank Palestinian population is still trying to wipe Israel off the map.
West Bank GDP per capita is comparable to that of Jorday, Egypt, and Lebanon, probably higher. Something like 3-5% of Palestinian population in West Bank got work permits in Israel too and there is a decent amount of inter-"state" commerce between Israel and PLO-held West Bank.
Not saying the situation is that great but the portrayal of West Bank as a dystopian internment camp is a bit detached from reality on the ground, especially given th
I'm not sure how it will be post war.
West Bank GDP per capita is comparable to that of Jorday, Egypt, and Lebanon, probably higher. Something like 3-5% of Palestinian population in West Bank got work permits in Israel too and there is a decent amount of inter-"state" commerce between Israel and PLO-held West Bank.
Not saying the situation is that great but the portrayal of West Bank as a dystopian internment camp is a bit detached from reality on the ground, especially given th
2022 per capita figures put west bank + gaza at virtually identical numbers with egypt (3800 vs 3700).
I can't find west bank only data but it's necessarily higher, with gaza being lower.
I think your arguments are generally pretty solid, but Israel is currently annihilating Gaza and has killed like 30000 people. Victor has been right that the scale of destruction is greater than anything in like decades for such a short time period. In the real world, with this continuing to happen, it's a diversion to argue about what happened with Oslo or who is chanting what in a protest.
You said yourself, if you were Gazan you'd have
Micro, nobody here, generally speaking, doesn't wish the 25-30k number was smaller. I do think it's tremendously dishonest to blend combatants and civilians into one number, but generally speaking nobody here looks at that number and doesn't think "woah".
But October 7th was a woah moment, and it required the total elimination of Hamas from Israel's immediate border. On that front the country was nearly unanimous, not just Bibi. I think we all realize now how complex that is to achieve given the vast tunnel network, the extent of the commingling/hiding among the vulnerable civilian population, the choice of weapons used, and the intense density of the population. I already quoted the UN's own data that 9:1 in urban combat (civilian to combatant) is a pretty common result. We're seeing that horror first hand.
3-4 of the biggest armies in the world have observed the IDF's methods of warning bomb sites before bombing (leaflet, cell data, speakers), and have said "we would never do that". So the truth of the horror is definitely somewhere in the middle on this one. It's horrible and it's still remarkable the effort levels being put in to atempt to save civilians. They waited 3 weeks for the civilians to move south the first time.
All of the above is true. But it does not change the fact that before Oct 7th, the same forever refugee mindset was leading nowhere. And nobody was effectively doing anything to promote the seeds for peace: deradicalization, and an end to the forever refugee mindset. "From the River to the Sea" does one thing: kill Palestinians by making Hamas bolder and more well funded. It has never done anything else. It's just keeping the forever refugees clinging to an impossible dream.
The point, Trolly, is that nobody else in the world is a 4 generation forever refugee (even if they live anywhere in the world for that matter). I gave you a very clear example of another people in the region who had the same degree of calamity, and they didn't craft their existence around revenge and perpetual right to return.
The whole point of Zionism is that European Jews, even decades before the rise of the Nazis, claimed to be dispossessed refugees and also claimed a right of return to the cultural homeland, over 1,800 years after (some of) their notional ancestors were deported by the Romans. If you think the Palestinians, having been set that example, will simply pack it in and lie down after less than 60 years since Israel's war of conquest in 1967, you are likely to be disappointed.
I'll give you guys some more context: a BBQ and a patio set
That's what the Germans gave me for liquidating my family, taking our family home and business, and causing a life of mental anguish and therapy bills. A BBQ and a patio set. $2000, that was my share. My brother got that, my mom got that. $6000 total. That was it.
We never chanted " from Bialystok to the Rhine, Germany will be mine". I've never considered myself a 4th generation refugee. My tiny family split in 3, some went to Canada, some to the USA, and some to Israel. We didn't take up eternal Jihad against the Germans, vowing to return. For a bit there we didn't buy German cars, that was about the extent of it. Same model as the Jews of Iraq, you have to make a life. But considering my family had literally nothing when it fled, we've done amazing. And I genuinely believe it's because we spent 0 minutes raging and Jihading against the outcome. Forget about the fact that the Palestinians could have stayed in Israel in 1948 over betting on Syria/Jordan/Egypt, and just accept the UN's vote. My family never even got that sort of option, it was just ovens, gas chambers and gravel pits for us.
A BBQ and a patio set.
The whole point of Zionism is that European Jews, even decades before the rise of the Nazis, claimed to be dispossessed refugees and also claimed a right of return to the cultural homeland, over 1,800 years after (some of) their notional ancestors were deported by the Romans. If you think the Palestinians, having been set that example, will simply pack it in and lie down after less than 60 years since Israel's war of conquest in 1967, you a
The Jews fleeing the Russian (and other) pogroms coming into Israel were literally refugees fleeing horrific crimes. Israel is the model for rehoming refugees (but then they don't stay forever refugees). The world has to do the same for Gaza now (at least a decent percent of them).
But otherwise, half of Israeli Jews are North African/middle Eastern. So let's not do this whole European song and dance thing some people like to play. Jews have had a place in Israel, unbroken, throughout this history. It's dishonest to claim otherwise.
If you want to play the perpetual game of death where you don't respect the nation the UN voted on, and over 100 other countries recognize, I dunno man. It's perhaps you who will be sorely disappointed.
I'll give you guys some more context: a BBQ and a patio set
That's what the Germans gave me for liquidating my family, taking our family home and business, and causing a life of mental anguish and therapy bills. A BBQ and a patio set. $2000, that was my share. My brother got that, my mom got that. $6000 total. That was it.
We never chanted " from Bialystok to the Rhine, Germany will be mine". I've never considered myself a 4th generation ref
The **** does this BBQ set have to do with Palestine?
I'll give you guys some more context: a BBQ and a patio set
That's what the Germans gave me for liquidating my family, taking our family home and business, and causing a life of mental anguish and therapy bills. A BBQ and a patio set. $2000, that was my share. My brother got that, my mom got that. $6000 total. That was it.
We never chanted " from Bialystok to the Rhine, Germany will be mine". I've never considered myself a 4th generation ref
Survivors of death camps (or heirs of victims assassinated there) should actually campaigned to have a portion of german gdp sent to them in perpetuity (or at least for many decades).
The japanese americans who got unconstitutionally put in concentration camps by FDR got 20k each (1990 money), or their heirs got that. And what people might have suffered there doesn't probably come to 1% of what the nazis did to jews , gipsies , homosexuals and others.
Survivors of death camps (or heirs of victims assassinated there) should actually campaigned to have a portion of german gdp sent to them in perpetuity (or at least for many decades).
The japanese americans who got unconstitutionally put in concentration camps by FDR got 20k each (1990 money), or their heirs got that. And what people might have suffered there doesn't probably come to 1% of what the nazis did to jews , gipsies , homosexuals
If the Germans had offered us all the deal:
"you can stay, but this country is self determined by Christians, we run this thing"
We would have taken that over the ovens. I'll tell you that much.
Serious question, how old is rafiki?
No, what is your point with all of this? Various other nations have committed crimes against the Jewish people, therefore Palestinians have to go **** off and die?
The others in this thread may not agree with it, but they get it.
Gimme a day to just gather the mental fortitude and stamina to explain it again to you, and I most likely will. I have a giant head cold because it's the depths of winter here. I don' t even get to enjoy the BBQ and patio set all year round 😃
Micro, nobody here, generally speaking, doesn't wish the 25-30k number was smaller. I do think it's tremendously dishonest to blend combatants and civilians into one number, but generally speaking nobody here looks at that number and doesn't think "woah".
But October 7th was a woah moment, and it required the total elimination of Hamas from Israel's immediate border. On that front the country was nearly unanimous, not just Bibi. I think we
I think when you're saying you would have cheered on Oct 7th if you were Gazan demonstrates, at least somewhat, is that you recognize that people are all the same. Populations, rather, are exactly the same. Arabs in Gaza chanting From the River to the Sea are doing exactly what Jews would be doing in the exact same situation. The situation for Jews in Europe, who were never ever home there, was a lot different. My family mostly came from Romania. You think anyone ever had the tiniest desire to go back? Of course not.
This applies to Israel too of course. Israelis have fought and been under ******* right wing governments for a generation and fed propaganda and lived behind gates and it's ****ed them up. That's why the center-left in Israel wants Gazans removed and the right wants them killed. It's all probably hopeless and, ****, free will itself is a ridiculous notion, but Israel doing so much killing now is bad and it's going to make things continue to be bad for a long time.
I think what Israel is doing is absolutely over the line and should have stopped long ago but this statement just doesn't look to be true in the most charitable sense.
Maybe over a lifetime or so, anything is possible, but the current level of vitriol mixed with the conditioning to risk the lives of literally millions of their own people just to attack any and all doesn't seem to square with those tantrums fading away from being granted a state.
It seems perfectly reasonable to accept that Israel needs to stop this attack and also realize that Hamas want's nothing else other than the complete glassing of Israel.
No, what is your point with all of this? Various other nations have committed crimes against the Jewish people, therefore Palestinians have to go **** off and die?
Lol man coming rafiki point is very clear.
Palestinians have to suck it up and accept their losses and move on with their lives, like Jews did so many times in history.
I think what Israel is doing is absolutely over the line and should have stopped long ago but this statement just doesn't look to be true in the most charitable sense.
Maybe over a lifetime or so, anything is possible, but the current level of vitriol mixed with the conditioning to risk the lives of literally millions of their own people just to attack any and all doesn't seem to square with those tantrums fading away from being granted a
It's the occupation that is driving the vitriol. That and continued incremental loss of land.
I think when you're saying you would have cheered on Oct 7th if you were Gazan demonstrates, at least somewhat, is that you recognize that people are all the same. Populations, rather, are exactly the same. Arabs in Gaza chanting From the River to the Sea are doing exactly what Jews would be doing in the exact same situation. The situation for Jews in Europe, who were never ever home there, was a lot different. My family mostly came fro
I don't fundementally disagree with a ton of that, decent post. I will only say
1) It's not a Right thing. The country is very unified, at least it was when most of the Gazans died. The split now is largely over the hostages.
2) We've spent an endless amount of time explaining how Israel got to a right wing gov after a decade of potential with the left. Things don't happen in a vacuum.
3) "Do you even want to go back" is kind of an lol rebuttal for how people manage to not be forever refugees. I think that one is gonna depend on what was lost. Some traded life as millionaires for life on a Kibbutz. But sure, for many they wouldn't go back now.
