Israel/Palestine thread

Israel/Palestine thread

Think this merits its own thread...

Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..

AM YISRAEL CHAI.


[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD

2+2 Rules

Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...


These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.

To reiterate some of the points:

1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.

2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.

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If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.

Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]

07 October 2023 at 09:33 PM
Reply...

23640 Replies

i
a

In 1947 Be'eri had a population of over 150. The early settlers engaged in land reclamation and tree planting.[3] The group was enlarged by young Jews from Iraq who arrived by desert trek. The Jewish National Fund reported that for months the kibbutz was completely isolated, "but the settlers held their ground until the liberation of the Negev in October 1948."[3]

After Israeli independence, the kibbutz moved three kilometres southeast to its present location. It is considered one of Israel's wealthiest kibbutzim.[2] From the Second Intifada, the kibbutz suffered from Qassam rocket attacks and combat near the Israel–Gaza barrier eight kilometres away.[4]


by PointlessWords P

In 1947 Be'eri had a population of over 150. The early settlers engaged in land reclamation and tree planting.[3] The group was enlarged by young Jews from Iraq who arrived by desert trek. The Jewish National Fund reported that for months the kibbutz was completely isolated, "but the settlers held their ground until the liberation of the Negev in October 1948."[3]

After Israeli independence, the kibbutz moved three kilometres southeast to it

Israel 'splaining with Google to Israelis and Jews is silly PointlessWords. This is like telling women how their periods work.


by rafiki P

If you're going to just paste some of the text and not cite your reference, it's worth letting them read it all. It's a lot more nuanced

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/me...

I’m not going to type out the list by hand when it can be easily c/ped. You claimed something as fact; I am listing the plethora of international human rights organizations that dispute your claim.

But speaking of nuance, did you think “Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza” was nuanced when you said it? It didn’t seem like it to me. I’m glad you care about nuance though.


Classification following the 2005 Disengagement Plan

Following the implementation of the 2005 Disengagement Plan, Israeli armed forces were no longer present in the territory of the Gaza Strip. For this reason, some reject Israel’s classification as an occupying power.

However, international practice and the majority of scholarly opinions have long considered that, even after its withdrawal in 2005, Israel has continued to occupy the Gaza Strip by virtue of the control exercised over its airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, the supply of civilian infrastructure, and the exercise of key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry. Indeed, as specified by the ICRC, “in some specific and exceptional cases – in particular when foreign forces withdraw from occupied territory (or parts thereof) while retaining key elements of authority or other important governmental functions that are typical of those usually taken on by an Occupying Power – the law of occupation might continue to apply within the territorial and functional limits of those competences […] although the foreign forces are not physically present in the territory concerned, the authority they retain may still amount to effective control for the purposes of the law of occupation and entail the continued application of the relevant provisions.” Such a functional approach to occupation allows to determine “the extent to which obligations under the law of occupation remain incumbent on hostile foreign forces that are phasing out or suddenly withdrawing from an occupied territory while retaining a certain authority over it”.

This view has been supported in relation to the Gaza Strip by several reports and declarations by relevant international bodies, such as the UN, the ICC and the ICRC.

https://www.rulac.org/browse/conflicts/m...


Classification following the 2023 Operations ‘Al-Aqsa Flood’ and ‘Swords of Iron’

The events that have unfolded since Hamas’ attack on 7th October 2023 do not warrant a change in the classification of the situation in the Gaza Strip as an instance of military occupation. While they can affect the range of applicable norms, they do not appear to have affected the elements on which that classification stood. Several considerations, which will be analysed in turn below, warrant this conclusion.

First, the occurrence of military operations and confrontations between the parties to the armed conflict is not, in and of itself, incompatible with occupation, to the extent that the occupier continues to retain effective control over territory. Neither the magnitude of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood in Israeli territory, nor the intensity of the fighting that Israel has encountered in its ground operation in northern Gaza, have affected the elements by which Israel used to exert its effective control over the Gaza Strip. The means and tools through which Israel has exercised its authority over the Gaza Strip since 2005, (and that have justified a classification as occupation throughout that period) – namely, airspace and sea control, border control, administrative issues – have not disappeared as a consequence of the October 2023 attack. Furthermore, it would be incorrect to consider the carrying out of a ground operation in Palestinian territory as evidence of a loss of control by Israel over Gaza – quite the contrary, such an operation could eventually result in the re-establishment of an Israeli military presence and authority in the Gaza Strip, and therefore in the re-enactment of an occupation stricto sensu (such as the one that had preceded the 2005 Disengagement Plan). In this regard, it should be noted that since this latest round of hostilities began, several UN organs and international NGOs have continued to classify the situation in the Gaza Strip as one meeting the definition of occupation.

Second, the classification as occupation is not ruled out by the recourse to specific means and methods of warfare in the context of the Israeli response to the 7 October 2023 attack. The IDF have referred to the ongoing operations as a ‘complete siege’ and Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant told the Knesset that Israel would no longer have “responsibility for life in Gaza”. According the majority view, this would rule out the persistence of an occupation insofar as the two notions are mutually exclusive. From this point of view, sieges are designed “to control a defended locality and obtain surrender or otherwise defeat the enemy through isolation”; it is only “if the siege ends in surrender or defeat [that] the place under siege falls under belligerent occupation”. This seems to be confirmed by statements such as that of the United States of America, which warned Israel of the dangers arising from an occupation of Gaza saying that it would “be a big mistake”, implying that Israel is not yet occupying Gaza. In reality, military occupation is not precluded by the establishment of a siege. Sieges (which are not explicitly defined under IHL) might be conceived as an attack within the meaning of Article 49 (1) AP I and attacks can be conducted in a territory under the control of an adverse Party. We cannot rule out situations (such as the one under review here) where conducts that can be characterized as "sieges" on specific and well-defined localities take place in the broader context of a situation amounting to belligerent occupation. This, in our view, is the correct way of construing those statements by a number of actors in the international community who, since 7 October 2023 have continued to classify the situation in the Gaza Strip as meeting the definition of occupation while at the same time referring to the total siege or blockade of Gaza. In this respect, Israel declared on 5 November 2023 that it had “encircled” Gaza City and, on 21 November 2023, that it had “completed encirclement” of Jabaliya in Gaza. Moreover, the conducts in which siege(s) in Gaza would materialize (such as reducing and ultimately interrupting the supply of commodities to the Gaza Strip, retaining control over the admission of humanitarian assistance, ordering inhabitants to evacuate, and deploying troops thereon) demonstrate that Israel keeps exercising a continued, effective control over Gaza. Therefore, for the time being, the classification as occupation remains the most accurate depiction of the situation, while the precise contours and scope of the obligations incumbent on Israel as an occupying power will have to be assessed (as has been the case in the recent past) through the lenses of a functional approach to the notion. This being said, the situation remains volatile, and it cannot be ruled out that the classification will change depending on how events will unfold.

https://www.rulac.org/browse/conflicts/m...


by metsandfinsfan P

Bill haywood

I want to thank you for generally being civil in your discussions and actually trying to debate. We disagree on most all of this issue, but you seem like a genuine person who cares

Thanks, you too.


by Crossnerd P

I’m not going to type out the list by hand when it can be easily c/ped. You claimed something as fact; I am listing the plethora of international human rights organizations that dispute your claim.

But speaking of nuance, did you think “Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza” was nuanced when you said it? It didn’t seem like it to me. I’m glad you care about nuance though.

The EU is listed there as considering Gaza occupied but it's not clear to me that's the case.

I don't care much what organizations that include objectively uncivilized countries where homosexuality is a crime, or where there is no right to free speech, or freedom of religion, or private property right think, they lose any moral standing in all matters the moment they allow such members.


This argument is asinine.

Whether Israel fits the definition of "occupation" is irrelevant. They manifestly are trying to control the amount of materials flowing in and out of Gaza (for good reason, to block weapons) and that means they do have an obligation to make sure Gazans have access.

The better question is whether Israel provided enough access. I am inclined to think they did. Gazans had fuel for a relatively reliable power/fuel supply, very high population growth, and food+water even with Hamas siphoning off much of the supplies.


by Crossnerd P

I’m not going to type out the list by hand when it can be easily c/ped. You claimed something as fact; I am listing the plethora of international human rights organizations that dispute your claim.

But speaking of nuance, did you think “Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza” was nuanced when you said it? It didn’t seem like it to me. I’m glad you care about nuance though.

*I* don't consider it to be, same as Israel doesn't consider it to be. For me, it's not nuanced.

But when I do talk to you about nuanced stuff and paste in text, I'll quote you where I got it from. You deserve that much.


by grizy P

This argument is asinine.

Whether Israel fits the definition of "occupation" is irrelevant. They manifestly are trying to control the amount of materials flowing in and out of Gaza (for good reason, to block weapons) and that means they do have an obligation to make sure Gazans have access.

The better question is whether Israel provided enough access. I am inclined to think they did. Gazans had fuel for a relatively reliable power/fuel supply

It isn't, if it isn't occupation they have no moral or legal responsibility to feed the population


by grizy P

This argument is asinine.

Whether Israel fits the definition of "occupation" is irrelevant. They manifestly are trying to control the amount of materials flowing in and out of Gaza (for good reason, to block weapons) and that means they do have an obligation to make sure Gazans have access.

The better question is whether Israel provided enough access. I am inclined to think they did. Gazans had fuel for a relatively reliable power/fuel supply

Egypt inspects every package through the rafa border for the same reason

Egypt occupied Gaza for 25 years

Egypt stops gazans from leaving because they don't want them

But israel Israel isreal


by rafiki P

*I* don't consider it to be, same as Israel doesn't consider it to be. For me, it's not nuanced.

But when I do talk to you about nuanced stuff and paste in text, I'll quote you where I got it from. You deserve that much.

I literally copied the list of organizations that dispute your claim. I’m sorry you needed a citation to the specific article I used to compile them. I just assumed anyone could Google. For me, that’s not nuanced either because it’s literally factual.


by metsandfinsfan P

Egypt inspects every package through the rafa border for the same reason

Egypt occupied Gaza for 25 years

Egypt stops gazans from leaving because they don't want them

But israel Israel isreal

Israel controls 6 of Gaza’s 7 land crossings. Israel controls Gaza’s maritime borders and airspace. Israel controls the movement of goods and persons in and out of the territory. Israel regularly deploys troops and missiles into Gaza. Israel controls the no-go buffer zone where Gazans are shot on sight. Gaza is dependent on Israel for electricity, currency, telephone networks, IDs, and permits to enter or leave. Israel controls the Palestinian Population Registry. And Israel maintains a military presence at the Egyptian/Gazan border and reserve the right to enter Gaza at will.

So yes, Israel, Mets. Take some accountability. Not every criticism can be hand-waved away as antisemitism.


by Crossnerd P

I literally copied the list of organizations that dispute your claim. I’m sorry you needed a citation to the specific article I used to compile them. I just assumed anyone could Google. For me, that’s not nuanced either because it’s literally factual.

There are like 30 UN countries that don't even recognize Israel to be a state, and most of the organizations you listed are UN related, using opinions of organizations that hate Israel isn't going to be very useful.


by Crossnerd P

Israel controls 6 of Gaza’s 7 land crossings. Israel controls Gaza’s maritime borders and airspace. Israel controls the movement of goods and persons in and out of the territory. Israel regularly deploys troops and missiles into Gaza. Israel controls the no-go buffer zone where Gazans are shot on sight. Gaza is dependent on Israel for electricity, currency, telephone networks, IDs, and permits to enter or leave. Israel controls

Now that we see the extent of what Hamas built, do you understand WHY they tried to prevent it with the blockade? Obviously they didn't succeed.

But Oct 7th and what we've discovered since does show what the thought process on the blockade was.

6000 TONS of cement went into those tunnels. Zero for shelters for civilians.


by Luciom P

There are like 30 UN countries that don't even recognize Israel to be a state, and most of the organizations you listed are UN related, using opinions of organizations that hate Israel isn't going to be very useful.

And if you read the article he didn't cite, you see all the ways in which it does clearly fail the occupation definition. You have to get kind of creative to make it stick. It's pretty unusual to have ZERO boots on the ground and call it that. The use of "technology" is where they start to try and make a case.

Since the coup in Gaza, really there has been one legit occupying force. Hamas. Hamas decides what happens day to day, in Gaza. Hamas will decide tomorrow who eats and who doesn't.


Maybe it's debatable. Maybe it's nuanced

but depriving people of fundemntals such as water while we argue the toss is obscene


by chezlaw P

Maybe it's debatable. Maybe it's nuanced

but depriving people of fundemntals such as water while we argue the toss is obscene

I agree that what Hamas is doing to Palestinian civilians is really obscene


No dispute there.


by Luciom P

I agree that what Hamas is doing to Palestinian civilians is really obscene

By what measure


by PointlessWords P

By what measure

By everything bad that's happening in Gaza, which has been caused by Hamas, and Hamas alone


by chezlaw P

Maybe it's debatable. Maybe it's nuanced

but depriving people of fundemntals such as water while we argue the toss is obscene

It’s not really debatable or nuanced. Starving millions of people to death is genocide. So, they should probably not do that.


by Crossnerd P

It’s not really debatable or nuanced. Starving millions of people to death is genocide.

Ye, please help us bring Hamas to justice


More than half of Un resolutions every year are against Israel

They're always held to a different standard


Estimates are hamas spent at least 90 million on tunnels

And they need so much fuel .. even now .. much more than a standard house

When they cried about no fuel they decided to hoard it rather than give it to their people


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