Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Thanks. I will do my best to not let the modding affect my posting at all. My impulse is certainly not to cooperate.
Not sure if you read nor if you care, but I didn't report you for the post that had you banned, nor i consider it an insult if you call me a racist (it's an insult for me if you call me a fascist though).
I am a free speech absolutist so for the very limited role my opinion can matter, feel free to write whatever you think it's appropriate to write
Egypt behaving like it does, makes it manifest that people criticizing Israel are fully in complete bad faith if they never spend words harshly criticizing Egypt as well.
So it's not about israel responsibilities or lack thereof: it's about the clear lack of any moral standing for most critics of Israel.
Egypt behaving like it does, makes it manifest that people criticizing Israel are fully in complete bad faith if they never spend words harshly criticizing Egypt as well.
So it's not about israel responsibilities or lack thereof: it's about the clear lack of any moral standing for most critics of Israel.
I think it would be difficult for Palestinians to culturally assimilate in Egypt because they have a very distinct walk.
Not sure if you read nor if you care, but I didn't report you for the post that had you banned, nor i consider it an insult if you call me a racist (it's an insult for me if you call me a fascist though).
I am a free speech absolutist so for the very limited role my opinion can matter, feel free to write whatever you think it's appropriate to write
I did say that and I'm not surprised that you weren't insulted by that. And I'm not surprised you are a free speech absolutist as am I and that you didn't whine to the mods like a baby. As you noted I did stop calling you a fascist. Your views on borders and immigration and on classes of humans being "garbage people" and your views on using state power to do so much violence (both police and military) is very consistent and perhaps a necessary conditions of being considered fascist, but you say you aren't a nationalist and wouldn't gaf about Italians if you decided to leave, so the label of fascist doesn't exactly fit.
I think it would be difficult for Palestinians to culturally assimilate in Egypt because they have a very distinct walk.
Oh I fully agree, mostly because Palestinians are considered second class human beings (at most) everywhere in the Arab world.
But point stands that if someone comes and starts going allin with a moral criticism of Israel at every step and fails to give some scorn to Egypt (I accept microbet admitting Egypt is bad, that's enough), then we get the picture very clearly: they don't give any actual Fu CK to morality, they just want to criticize Israel.
If you hate a society or nation or group enough you can usually find a lot of material to use to keep attacking it (bad behavior in groups , especially among extremist minorities of a group, is almost impossible to avoid).
But if the same outrage never happens for the identical horrid behavior when it happens elsewhere, that's a huge red flag to identify people who weaponize moralizing against their enemies but don't actually care at all about the topic they talk about
For example no one is credible if he considers Israel a genocidal country with leaders that commit war crimes, but doesn't think China is at the very least as bad as Israel.
If you are allin against Israel but not against China, you are 100% antisemite
Egypt behaving like it does, makes it manifest that people criticizing Israel are fully in complete bad faith if they never spend words harshly criticizing Egypt as well.
So it's not about israel responsibilities or lack thereof: it's about the clear lack of any moral standing for most critics of Israel.
Maybe. Most people are disingenuous to a fairly large degree when arguing and will never say anything they imagine could undermine their position and perhaps be used against them.
For example no one is credible if he considers Israel a genocidal country with leaders that commit war crimes, but doesn't think China is at the very least as bad as Israel.
If you are allin against Israel but not against China, you are 100% antisemite
Lotta people are antisemites, but it's reasonable to use your energy for things you think have a chance at being effective.
Criticizing both Israel and Egypt doesn't seem too hard.
Maybe. Most people are disingenuous to a fairly large degree when arguing and will never say anything they imagine could undermine their position and perhaps be used against them.
I think in the eyes of everyone on the fence, or barely pro Israel but with caveats, saying (for ex) what Israel is doing is unjustifiable because we want to have moral authority in the west to condamn China for the Uyghur genocide as well, would make the point much stronger.
I actually think that if enough criticism of Israel came framed like that from "very serious people" I might change my position at least a little.
As for Egypt, no one needs to claim it shares responsibilities 50-50.
But it's clear to everyone that if Egypt insisted in giving gazeans some breathing room, Israel would have been impotent in it's actions
Do you accept it at face value that this is all because "he is a journalist," or do you suppose the story is purposefully obfuscating some pertinent facts?
Wasn't linking it because he's a journalist, just that PW has an argument to refer to him as a hostage. If roles were reversed and Hamas held an Israeli for years on end with no charges would Israel consider that person a prisoner?
In fact that's so obvious (that people are using their energy where they think it might be effective), that I think it has to occur to everyone and saying something like "If you are allin against Israel but not against China, you are 100% antisemite" without admitting that possibility is disingenuous and refusing to admit some obvious truth because you think it might undermine your absolutist position.
I think in the eyes of everyone on the fence, or barely pro Israel but with caveats, saying (for ex) what Israel is doing is unjustifiable because we want to have moral authority in the west to condamn China for the Uyghur genocide as well, would make the point much stronger.
I actually think that if enough criticism of Israel came framed like that from "very serious people" I might change my position at least a little.
As for Egypt, no one n
Whenever the "very serious people" start taking a position that's exactly when it's time to consider the opposite.
Lotta people are antisemites, but it's reasonable to use your energy for things you think have a chance at being effective.
Why do people think Israel could cave (adjust behavior because of western opinion) easier than say Myanmar? Or Sudan? They are richer so there is less leeway in that, is that because they are a democracy?
I might be wrong but u always thought that if you presented a couple of billions of money they can steal to dictators, that should usually accomplish whatever you want from them than doing the same with a democracy.
But critics aren't offering any carrot!!! They just blame Israel without proposing anything to change their behavior in a way they still end up with some sort of a win
In fact that's so obvious (that people are using their energy where they think it might be effective), that I think it has to occur to everyone and saying something like "If you are allin against Israel but not against China, you are 100% antisemite" without admitting that possibility is disingenuous and refusing to admit some obvious truth because you think it might undermine your absolutist position.
No I don't, I agree asking for equal time share would be stupid, I am just saying that on Twitter, if I check a feed that has 190 posts against Israel behavior in 36 months, if I find 0 against china I am 100% they are antisemite. Like not even a shade of doubt.
If I find 3 about Sudan, 6 about china, and 200 about israel, I keep the possibility you mention open.
Like not even a single tweet on hong kong horrific events in the past years... As a prolific account with political takes about human rights... Neverending anti-israel commentary... You are antisemite. And very deeply so
I think in the eyes of everyone on the fence, or barely pro Israel but with caveats, saying (for ex) what Israel is doing is unjustifiable because we want to have moral authority in the west to condamn China for the Uyghur genocide as well, would make the point much stronger.
I actually think that if enough criticism of Israel came framed like that from "very serious people" I might change my position at least a little.
As for Egypt, no one n
There might be a story someone could write where Egypt allowing 2 million Palestinians in would be good for Palestinians, but in the real world it probably means generations living in refugee camps in The Sinai, not allowed to work or travel in Egypt and it probably leads to more violence and instability not just in Egypt, but for other countries in the area and ultimately leads to lower security for Israel.
But, I can't think of anything that ends up looking good over the next 20 years or so for most Palestinians that doesn't sound like utopian fiction at this point.
'Seven Palestinians have died in detention since the start of the war' also stood out. And the gentleman in question is actually a journalist. I don't know if he has any position in Hamas, but the IDF probably don't know either, they just find him inconvenient, and they don't need to meet any evidential standard. The IDF commander's word is sufficient.
Source for the 7 Palestinians who have died??
Also, the IDF’s word is insufficient but any word coming from Gaza is gospel?? Got it.
The Hamas controlled media will make up whatever they want, falsely accuse Israel of bombing Al-Shifa hospital etc. and some people will take it as fact.
The same people who refuse to believe or justify the atrocities committed by Hamas.
There might be a story someone could write where Egypt allowing 2 million Palestinians in would be good for Palestinians, but in the real world it probably means generations living in refugee camps in The Sinai, not allowed to work or travel in Egypt and it probably leads to more violence and instability not just in Egypt, but for other countries in the area and ultimately leads to lower security for Israel.
But, I can't think of anything th
Nah comon there is a lot of possible in-betweens, like not allowing any Israel presence on their side of the border at the rafah border crossing.
Rerouting all international aid there. Allowing international investment for pipelines or whatever infrastructure is deemed essential to provide basic services to the Palestinians, on the gaza-egypt border.
There you can allow sea passage in various ways.
And so on.
I am not talking today I am talking since the israelian blockade happened.
All observers admit that without Egypt help , Israel couldn't have blockaded Gaza effectively.
Why do people think Israel could cave (adjust behavior because of western opinion) easier than say Myanmar? Or Sudan? They are richer so there is less leeway in that, is that because they are a democracy?
I might be wrong but u always thought that if you presented a couple of billions of money they can steal to dictators, that should usually accomplish whatever you want from them than doing the same with a democracy.
But critics aren't offeri
Israel is a democracy with a million links to Western countries involving trade, tourism, millions of people working together etc etc and it should and does care about its reputation in other countries. A dictatorship where the entire economy revolves around exporting completely fungible raw materials doesn't need to care about the opinions of people who just consume some of their oil or cobalt without having any idea where it comes from. Israel, like South Africa, can potentially be influenced by peaceful popular protest/boycotting.
Israel is a democracy with a million links to Western countries involving trade, tourism, millions of people working together etc etc and it should and does care about its reputation in other countries. A dictatorship where the entire economy revolves around exporting completely fungible raw materials doesn't need to care about the opinions of people who just consume some of their oil or cobalt without having any idea where it comes from.
As Tyler Cowen would say, think at the equilibrium.
Let's assume you are right and Israel is more "influenceable" because of the reasons you cite.
Do you realize that is a really strong message to countries everywhere, that if they open up to democracy and liberal values, the west will push upon them MORE to influence their behavior?
Do you want the international community equilibrium to be "I don't move even am inch because as long as I am just considered a place that exports commodity I can disregard human rights completely"?
