Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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stealing from concentration camp victims and then bragging about it is amazing
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-soldiers-...
the West was absolutely horrified when Russia did this on a much lesser scale.
If they truly wanted to eradicate Gaza they could very easily do so and the civilian death toll would be far higher.
It's not at all clear that they could do this without the US getting upset and cutting off aid or calling for a ceasefire. IDF is pushing the bounds of what they can get away with quite expertly.
man, Hasbara is not sending their best
You make a compelling argument, counselor vic
Because it suits their victim narrative and that's how terrorists always work. Conflict is how they recruit and it's what they get off on. And self-pity is always the motor of terrorism, just as it is of Fascism. They need conflict and disaster to thrive. (Note that the Israeli mentality just now is not all that different.)
This is interesting. Honestly, thanks for contributing something worth reading.
I can't find the article but the Houthies in one of their statements a few days ago were calling out Arab nations for not supporting Gaza. Basically saying you guys have rich societies and even if you're not going to back them up militarily there should be more aid coming in from the region.
I get that, and they definitely support Gaza
But shooting at us and uk ships in the region makes it harder for aid to come in
I get that, and they definitely support Gaza
But shooting at us and uk ships in the region makes it harder for aid to come in
Not significantly if at all. They are shooting at cargo ships from Asia and tankers coming from the Persian/Arabian Gulf through the Red Sea on their way to the Mediterranean and North Atlantic. Aid will primarily be coming from via the Mediterranean Sea or could go by sea from Jordan and stay well North of Yemen in the Red Sea. The aid that might come from Qatar or Kuwait or something is probably not really food and stuff that they send directly, but food and stuff that they buy and would again be coming from the Mediterranean.
Israel blocks the port in Gaza and any aid from the sea is going to have to land in Egypt and then still has to be approved by Israel to get in through Rafah or Kerem Shalom.
The killementality is latent within us all.
I'd be interested to read the accounts of soldiers. Seems inconceivable to me, for having never lived it. Yet, it's ubiquitous now - 110 armed conflicts in the world at this time - and throughout history.
Micro, sup? Perpetual war has produced the science killemology.
I have refrained from such digs at you.
No where in your post do you acknowledge that Israel refused to end the occupation, that it divided the WB into 165 cantons with checkpoints in between. There were not two forks, one peace and one war. Israel offered just the fulfillment of the long-term settler project to block a Palestinian state. This was Labor policy, as well as Likud.
I'm sorry Bill, but again, history shows the Palestinian leadership chose the forever war based on a fantasy objective they will never have. Camp David as a starting point would have been wildly successful at creating a better life than they got, now that we've watched the exact horror that Clinton predicted play out.
People who try to argue against that are a big reason why there is so much suffering today. It's a fantastic delusion, the concept of "holding out for better". Once upon a time, nobody would have imagined normalization with Egypt, then Jordan, then the UAE, maybe soon the Saudis. If you told someone that in 1950 they'd laugh at you. But here we are. Things change when people stop attacking you.
So now you tell me Bill. If the Palestinians had accepted their best offer and put down ALL their weapons, do you think it might have had the potential to get better and better the way it has with every Arab nation that has accepted Israel? Because if you want to keep sending them down the other fork in the road man, by all means. It's forever death.
I personally don't want to be a part of the fantasy that keeps pushing these poor people down that road. And with the giant reset button this conflict COULD create, I hope they don't waste the opportunity to recognize that they have to change their story about us to make this work. As long as the desire to take it all back from the evil Jews is the story, we'll be doing this exchange again in 10-20-30 years. And honestly one has to ask themselves WHY.
Every single society on Earth valorizes warriors who die for freedom, it's the core premise of every war movie ever. Only with Muslims this gets singled out and pathologized --they think it's glorious to die in battle! Can you even imagine such a society?
Sure, Muslims lives would be perfect with Jew around, why are we contesting this?
Maybe because the Muslims chose the wrong enemy? Maybe because they chose to target a population which deserves better treatment for a couple of centuries than all other human beings as reparations for what we (Muslim included) did to them?
It's not at all clear that they could do this without the US getting upset and cutting off aid or calling for a ceasefire. IDF is pushing the bounds of what they can get away with quite expertly.
Trump was president for 4 years. Allegedly, he doesn't give a ****. Why didn't they exterminate Palestinians with trump as president when they had a chance?
I'm sorry Bill, but again, history shows the Palestinian leadership chose the forever war based on a fantasy objective they will never have. Camp David as a starting point would have been wildly successful at creating a better life than they got, now that we've watched the exact horror that Clinton predicted play out.
People who try to argue against that are a big reason why there is so much suffering today. It's a fantastic delusion, the c
blaming the victim while trying to play the victim is so loathsome. Israel has shown their intent beyond just words. laying down their weapons would have been a grave mistake.
The killementality is latent within us all.
I'd be interested to read the accounts of soldiers. Seems inconceivable to me, for having never lived it. Yet, it's ubiquitous now - 110 armed conflicts in the world at this time - and throughout history.
Micro, sup? Perpetual war has produced the science killemology.
Not much.
I'm sure I have a reasonable amount of latent killementality.
I will always push back about the supposed ubiquity of war and violence. Peace is much more ubiquitous. You look at lists of wars and think, gosh, look at all those wars, but no one makes lists of peaces.
So now you tell me Bill. If the Palestinians had accepted their best offer and put down ALL their weapons, do you think it might have had the potential to get better and better the way it has with every Arab nation that has accepted Israel?
You are not engaging with the fact that the occupation is permanent. The PLO gave up the gun and got very little out of it. Rabin bragged to the Knesset that Oslo offered "less than" a state.
The two state solution is gone. There's not enough Palestine left to form a state, what with Area C creating cantons. This is due to the long-term policy of expanding settlements, not anything the PLO did. You are locked into being an apartheid occupier for 100 years.
There's no comparison between the Palestinians and other Arab states because Egyptians are not occupied. They are outside the zone Israelis sought to conquer.
What, in Israeli history, suggests things would get "better and better" for Palestinians? The PLO gave up armed struggle and was rewarded with more settlements.
If Israel wanted two states, it would not have built the settlements.
You are not engaging with the fact that the occupation is permanent. The PLO gave up the gun and got very little out of it. Rabin bragged to the Knesset that Oslo offered "less than" a state.
I think the events of the last months have maybe made this impossible, but I think the divisions of land in the West Bank are not quite impossible to undo. The two largest settlements, which are the largest by a fair amount, border the border and most of the others with any significant population are either on the border or close.
Israel gave up sinai as part of peace with egypt. It lasted
Egypt gave up gaxa as part of peace with Gaza. It did not
