Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
The moral standard that the state of Israel should live up to in response to 10/7 is no different than what it is for a person who has been attacked. You can morally use reasonable force. You can protect yourself. If someone invades your home you can shoot them, but you can't bomb their home killing their children - not even if they killed yours. If they promise to invade your home again can you break down their door and shoot them and
No one lives up to this standard, especially in this part of the world. And we dont even ask anyone else too. Did Turkey meet this standard when a couple of their soldiers were killed by Kurdish militants and in response they went on a bombing spree a couple months ago (this barely made the news, so I doubt most people in this thread even know this happened, or would care if they did know). Of course not.
Did Iran live up to this standard in all their attacks in response to the ISIS funeral bombing? Of course not. They shot giant cruise missiles at the home of a civilian Kurdish real estate developer, wiping out most of his family. And justified it by saying he was a "Zionist."
Rafiki,
Turkey will admit the Armenian genocide before you will get Victor to grant anything to Israel or Israelis. If you want to keep engaging him as a "friend" you will just have to agree to disagree on this point like Crossnerd did, and move on.
Rafiki,
Turkey will admit the Armenian genocide before you will get Victor to grant anything to Israel or Israelis. If you want to keep engaging him as a "friend" you will just have to agree to disagree on this point like Crossnerd did.
I mean, I have said many times that the Israelis should not be evicted from the land they stole. and a state named Israel can exist as well, albeit not of the current ideology of oppression, apartheid, brutality, and genocide.
I mean, I have said many times that the Israelis should not be evicted from the land they stole. and a state named Israel can exist as well, albeit not of the current ideology of oppression, apartheid, brutality, and genocide.
Victor I refute "stole" because the UN doesn't force stolen land, and didn't for anyone else.
But I'll ask you this:
Any chance you live on "stolen land" that you're typing from right now?
I am pointing out that sure, most rockets hit nothing (on a percentage basis, since he asked). But enough of them DO hit something that it creates a total panic in the society, and in particular robs children of a proper childhood. The amount of children in therapy is astounding. But that is what terrorism is. That's where the name came from. It's designed to keep you in perpetual fear/terror.
When the bombs were exploding in the markets in
So getting the threat of destruction which is 1/100th the threat that Palestinians face is that traumatic ?
So Palestinians have it way way way worse is what you’re saying?
2) Israel isn't allowed a decisive victory. In the last 3 wars they were told to stop, and they did. That's a matter of historical fact. I'm not sure what other country is held to that standard. But in this case, the lack of a decisive victory probably just means more forever war. Same as it always works out.
I think in totality not permitting Israel to decisively win any of the wars when the Arabs have attacked them has worked out positively. It is hard to imagine relations would be normalized to the extent they have been if Cairo, Damascus or Beirut had been destroyed like Gaza.
But that is dealing with rationale state actors actually interested in the welfare and future of their own people. Obviously in its most recent iteration, Palestinian society has been dominated by irrational actors controlled by foreign interests, that dont care about the Palestinian people at all. And so Israeli restraint has not worked for anyone's benefit, especially the Palestinian people.
Victor I refute "stole" because the UN doesn't force stolen land, and didn't for anyone else.
But I'll ask you this:
Any chance you live on "stolen land" that you're typing from right now?
ofc I do. however, its irrelevant and I am not saying the Israelis should give the land back and leave. they need to learn to share, like a little kid. unfortunately they are like a little kid with nuclear bombs and disgusting weapons that they use on a whim.
I mean, I have said many times that the Israelis should not be evicted from the land they stole. and a state named Israel can exist as well, albeit not of the current ideology of oppression, apartheid, brutality, and genocide.
Do you have any list of specific actions Israel would have to undertake where it should be allowed to continue to exist?
No that’s way different.
So is it ok for Israel to kill 50k Palestinians to in order to save 5k lives later?
Obviously that’s how it works.
I asked if it was ok
Why is answering yes or no questions so difficult for you guys
Because answers about tradeoffs require details, details matter.
When it changed from "might" to certain, and when the civilians are from an enemy population, it becomes very easy to answer.
Better question would be which ratio is the limit, 10:1, 30:1, 100:1? Not as easy to answer but my guess is "in the hundreds to 1"
I changed the question for you and you still won’t answer it
Are you trolling me or do you actually not understand how to answer a yes or no question without asking another question
ofc I do. however, its irrelevant and I am not saying the Israelis should give the land back and leave. they need to learn to share, like a little kid. unfortunately they are like a little kid with nuclear bombs and disgusting weapons that they use on a whim.
Where else is the share model being implemented today? Outside of the first nation reserves (which as a model is a pretty big disaster up here).
And more importantly, did you notice that nowhere else was your idea implemented. Never has.
The share did happen btw Victor. The Jews got Israel. The Muslims got....the rest.
Where else is the share model being implemented today? Outside of the first nation reserves (which as a model is a pretty big disaster up here).
And more importantly, did you notice that nowhere else was your idea implemented. Never has.
The share did happen btw Victor. The Jews got Israel. The Muslims got....the rest.
But mommy all of the other kids murder the local indigenous population! Why can’t I???
Do you have any list of specific actions Israel would have to undertake where it should be allowed to continue to exist?
reread the post, I specifically said it can continue to exit.
Where else is the share model being implemented today? Outside of the first nation reserves (which as a model is a pretty big disaster up here).
And more importantly, did you notice that nowhere else was your idea implemented. Never has.
The share did happen btw Victor. The Jews got Israel. The Muslims got....the rest.
doesnt look like much a share in the West Bank or in Gaza. not sure what the Mooslems has to do with it.
gross as usual
Vic hasn't addressed the rapes and claims they didn't happen and have been thoroughly debunked. That's not considered acknowledgement, not in my neck of the woods anyway.
I think his contention was that there was never a planned campaign to mass rape and sexually assault women as was inaccurately reported initially.
I’ve cited more sources and still believe wherever men wage war they also rape. Palestinians and Israelis have likely both committed rapes during these atrocities. This is a ubiquitous aspect of sexual violence against women in war times. Arguing who is during more raping is a pointless argument to me just as much as whether or not they happened- they did and they do.
it's funny when I replied to that post, I KNEW the last sentence would send you guys on this tangent (I added it right at the end). I'll know better for next time.
What about the original point we were discussing? Since that's what you asked about, and that's what I responded to.
That Israelis are experiencing trauma? Sure, some of them are or maybe all are to some degree. The fearmongering doesn't make it any better I'm sure though. The constant stream of traumatizing videos people watch, whether they are of 10/7 or of destruction since them is surely traumatizing. But having to take your family to bomb shelters all the time is obviously traumatic and that has had an effect of making many Israelis quite hardlined about what they want to happen in Gaza.
People are all the same despite what some people who talk about different racial or ethnic groups being different like to say. Arabs, Black people, Swedish people whatever put into exactly the same situation with the same history as Israelis, would, en masse, react exactly the same way. If anything that happens doesn't seem understandable, it's just a failure of the person's ability to understand. That goes for Gazans too. And more killing just makes things worse in the future.
I love the jews aren't indigenous because they were forced out and came back argument
That Israelis are experiencing trauma? Sure, some of them are or maybe all are to some degree. .
I'm pretty close to putting you on ignore
My back windshield was smashed when i woke up. It's a convertible so i need a whole new top
I'm assuming it's because of the i support Israel sign on my lawn. Maybe I'm wrong
American jews are experiencing trauma. And you doubt Israelis are?
What happened to you. I get trying to tow the line and make sure you hold Israel accountable, but you've far surpassed it. I honestly don't get it
when were the Jews forced out?
I'm pretty close to putting you on ignore
My back windshield was smashed when i woke up. It's a convertible so i need a whole new top
I'm assuming it's because of the i support Israel sign on my lawn. Maybe I'm wrong
American jews are experiencing trauma. And you doubt Israelis are?
What happened to you. I get trying to tow the line and make sure you hold Israel accountable, but you've far surpassed it. I honestly don't get it
no one doubts Israelis are traumatized to some extent. they are saying that it does not justify murdering and traumatizing other people (yes, Gazans are people despite all the dehumanizing language and ideals from the Israelis) at an intensity and rate orders of magnitude more.
you put a hate symbol on your lawn and it provoked a response. not much sympathy here.
I think his contention was that there was never a planned campaign to mass rape and sexually assault women as was inaccurately reported initially.
I’ve cited more sources and still believe wherever men wage war they also rape. Palestinians and Israelis have likely both committed rapes during these atrocities. This is a ubiquitous aspect of sexual violence against women in war times. Arguing who is during more raping is a pointless argument t
So it was opportunistic rape instead of planned? I'm not arguing who's doing more raping. Victor was denying the rapes took place at all and called the witnesses frauds. No source is good enough for him re Hamas atrocities but anything on twitter against Israel is taken as gospel by him as well as from Hamas apologists like Francesca Albanese. That's what I was taking him up on.
Furthermore if IDF members are found to have engaged in rape then they have a far better chance of going to trial for it in Israel than Hamas rapists have in Gaza.
So it was opportunistic rape instead of planned? I'm not arguing who's doing more raping. Victor was denying the rapes took place at all and called the witnesses frauds. No source is good enough for him re Hamas atrocities but anything on twitter against Israel is taken as gospel by him as well as from Hamas apologists like Francesca Albanese. That's what I was taking him up on.
Furthermore if IDF members are found to have engaged in rape th
is Yossi Landau, the guy who claimed 40 beheaded babies and other proven false claims a credible witness?
You definitely don't have a moral duty to risk your life more than necessary (going there in person instead of bombinb) to preserve other people lives when pursuing a NAP violator lol. If he knows he is being targeted by someone with bombs, the moral responsibility for collateral damage is entirely his if he hides near civilians. Every single palestinian life killed in the pursuit of hamas is being killed by hamas, that's the core part you
That's ****ing stupid cop thinking. By your reasoning if someone threatened me and runs into your house I can blow up your house. Hell, I could nuke Italy. Why take any chances?
