Israel/Palestine thread

I mean that’s absurd.

The whole “both guys suck” line is tiresome. They aren’t the same, people need to vote.

Once again, not what I said at all. You’re really allergic to the truth huh?

Also lol, never had anyone call me a liberal before.

I dunno man, we already established I wont vote for Biden. then you said this.

and ofc Im not gonna vote lol. but I guess if I mail in Jill Stein or Ross Perot or Ralph Nader or Uncommitted then I have integrity?

Why do you do things like this? I have literal posts stating openly that I am not OK with what Israel is doing. There are plenty of posts by you with which I agree. Obviously I don't agree with all of them

I also don't understand why you spend so much time calling others genocide supporters and sycophants. What is happening there is a bit more complex than that, although I do agree that it ultimately is a genocide due what looks like indiscriminate killing at this point and no end in sight. That was the reason I asked gs how many he thought were actually killed. The point was it kind of doesn't matter at this point. It's a lot of ****ing people, far too many for any type of dispute...

But I digress. I think I'm going to point out one last time that YOU support genocide just by being an American and paying taxes. WE ARE ALL COMPLICIT in this. It doesn't matter how "above it all" you try to sound. You aren't, neither are pretty much all of us Americans

If you want to have that opinion then ok.

But you can't say that choosing one warmonger over another is the principled approach.

Ok, I’ll concede that “principled” is probably the wrong word.

Not seeing an overall difference between the two seems, wrong? And not voting doesn’t accomplish anything, one of the two will be president.

obv when I say genocide support I do not mean coercive material support.

I mean the words written by people in this thread.

I am glad that you agree it is a genocide. I am wondering which posts of mine that you dont find credible and why if you broadly agree with my conclusions.

I will push back slightly and argue that the killing is not indiscriminate. or at least it is not always indiscriminate. certainly the flour killings and snipings and countless others are indeed intended for anyone and everyone possible.

but Israel has engaged in a campaign to destroy the fabric of society by targeting journalists, doctors/nurses/paramedics, academics, activists, and bakers (food suppliers).

sure they do plenty of random and terror bombings likely intended to kill as many civilians as possible. but they also target the most influential and functional members of Gazan society intentionally.

and we are starting to see the same thing in Lebanon where they killed 3 paramedics the other day.

Trump rocked the Muslim travel ban, wants Israel to finish the job, was the one to recognize Jerusalem, increased aid to Israel, pledges to expel anyone who supports Hamas, thinks "Islam Hates Us", and vowed to expand a Muslim ban on immigration on this campaign trail.

But people gotta worry about Biden?

I think people are going to be in for a rude awakening when he wins. Real rude.

Hoping Trump wins by 1 vote bc vic refused to vote, ala Curb Your Enthusiasm.

I have not followed this thread too closely, but I did find myself thinking that Israel's interest is in eradicating Hamas

They've also made it clear they don't care, or maybe they can't care about who they kill in trying to accomplish that. It's an ugly truth that Netanyahu seems in firm belief of

Obviously there are varying gradations of those who are in agreement with that. I think there are large swaths of people who don't agree with it at all. Among us and in Israel, they're all stuck in the same situation. They have opinions, and maybe protest, but none of us have real power. What is happening will happen no matter what we do

But Israel can't simply "back down" and everything is pristine. I don't see how anyone can see that as disputable, which is why I made it the first of your posts that I quoted. You have made the most posts in this thread, 500+ more than the next person, and the way you post, well, it shouldn't be a surprise you get questioned a lot. You effectively ask for it...but I digress

I don't think Israel should be doing what they're doing, but I also don't have a good alternative, other than the post I made a while back to Luciom. Flood them w aid and relentlessly try to build Gaza, somehow, in spite of Hamas' control and pillaging of what aid is and was sent there before...

So I end up seeing exactly why Israel is doing this even if in some minds it is war and not intently a genocide. It is what is necessary for security and, depending on who you ask, survival. Just ends up being a de facto genocide bc they're obv stopping at nothing, so I see no reason not to call it a genocide

I'm at a point where my only question is what fills the void left when it is all in rubble, Hamas is gone, and everyone is dead?

ETA: This was a quick reply to Vic

This is obviously not correct at all. Israel has dropped enough bombs to kill all 2 million people in Gaza several times over if that was their objective. They could carpet bomb and kill 200K people tonight if they were inclined. Saying they are obviously stopping at nothing is just plain nonsense.

They really could cut off the electricity and destroy all the water supplies if they chose. This war has been going on 5 months. Humans can only survive without water for 3 days. So you can do some real easy math how things would go very quickly if Israel really was stopping at nothing.

Israel may not have the discretion you would prefer, but I dont think it is productive to use rhetoric like this that clearly isn't true. And since it seems like Hezbollah wants open a second front, I think it is necessary to have some perspective how bad it really could get for Palestinians, Lebanese and Israelis if Israel really does get to the point where they feel existentially threatened and decide to stop at nothing.

Biden is doing genocide

Israel could also end the murdering, end the occupation, end the blockade, and begin negotiations along the lines of the 1967 borders which is what the Palestinians have asked for.

I mean, they cant do that obv. bc then they would not be Israel. murdering and controlling Palestinians is one of the main tenets of their cause. just like murdering Jews was the point of the Nazis. killing, torturing, and enslaving Palestinians is endemic to the Israeli state.

and in our lifetimes they will go back into Lebanon after this. and in a few more generations they will go for some of Jordan and Syria and Egypt.

lol now I'm not sure you aren't just a bot

I mean, genocide is a red line for me. when Trump does worse genocide, then I will hold him to the same standards.

and in luckbox fashion, I am not sure why people care who I am voting for. sorry that I am not gonna vote for liberal hero and genocide doer Joe Biden even if he is actually better than Trump by 1%. I dont believe in the 99% Hitler meme.

But you have to be a bot.

Trump is a literal plague for Muslims. He's extremely tight with Bibi, he's shown very few signs of wanting to do anything but support Israel for years now.

Do you think he'd have cut all aid here if he was presently president? You can't be this much of a first level thinker, it's not possible. It's like you're chatgpt.

Trump literally just said TODAY that he's good with Israel finishing the job. You think he'd have said different as president?

Vicgpt. It has to be.

That wasn't a real episode it was an SNL skit if that's what you're referring to 😀

I dont think Trump would be better in my eyes. but I know that GenocideJoe is doing genocide. also Im not voting.

you wrong

So ignoring Victor's nonsense emotionally charged rhetoric, I think it is important to ask, "What exactly is Israel doing, and why?"

First, generally Israel realizes what every American President who has ever dealt with Palestinians realized very quickly, and the is their leadership has never had interest in any type of peace, for very mundane reasons. They are simply making too much grifting off the top, so why would they ever jump off the gravy train?

Arafat himself seemed to have no interest in material things, but it was known that his family became spectacularly wealthy socialites in Europe grifting aid money. They probably still are. And we are all well aware of the large number of Hamas billionaires. And that is just the top. The grift goes several layers down.

So given Palestinian leadership has no interest in actually making peace, Israel is taking the opportunity to slowly take land, which they can use for leverage (or just keep) down the road IF Palestinians ever decide to make peace. On top of this, some land, like the Golan Heights, is extremely valuable for strategic defense reasons.

Is it a cynical strategy? Sure. But one Palestinian leadership is allowing by never getting serious about negotiating a peace. Also, has Israel fed into Palestinian dysfunction by supporting dysfunctional grifters like Hamas and playing factions off eacheother? Probably.

Ok at least that. Thank god. I thought i was taking crazy pills.

30+ dead Americans and American hostages left still. Trump would go yuuuuuge with this. Most American leaders would, all things considered. But the Republican track record for letting Arabs live is pretty pretty bad. We can feel reasonably confident that Gaza would be as ruined.

Earlier in this thread, pointless said that israel was a white country beating up brown people and said he can tell who is an Israeli or Palestinian just by looking at them

And you're wasting your time arguing with him, and you are surprised he thinks the hostages that Hamas took are prisoners, and the prisoners are actually hostages?

He is literally saying pointless words

All Israel is doing is shifting from the "contain Hamas" strategy, which failed miserably, to the "eliminate Hamas" strategy. That's it, it's not more complicated. They and others believe there's a level of effective weakness from which Hamas cannot return. Someone else then replaces them. For now all they care about is total operational collapse of Hamas so that you can't have another Oct 7th. And that's why they have to finish the job in Rafah in their eyes. For the IDF it'll be a huge loss to cut the mission short now. It'll make every death and objective hit so far largely pointless. I'm just giving you their views, not my own btw. But that''s where they're at.

To them Hitler is on your border, and you can do only one thing there. That's what they think.

Ok. So now what is Israel doing in Gaza? Putting aside all the nonsense "genocide" rhetoric it appears Israel is trying to accomplish several things at once.

1. First, they do seem to be trying to eliminate Hamas and destroy their infrastructure

2. They do seem to be sincerely trying to find hostages to the extent they reasonably can (which isn't much as they dont seem to have a clue where the hostages are, and even if they did know they would probably be gone or dead by the time Israel got to them if they tried a rescue operation).

3. They are destroying North Gaza to create security perimeter.

4. This might be the most important point. I think they are operating a psychological campaign to destroy the Palestinian hope of reconquering Israel by showing just how much more powerful they are and how hopeless the cause really is. Everyone likes to say something along the lines of, "the more you destroy terrorists, the more they will just come back." And although it sounds nice to liberals, it isn't obvious it is actually true. There are plenty of historical instances where terrorists just give up hope and move on with their lives. An ironic example of this is when Rome conquered historic Israel. By all accounts Israel gave them a good fight, including plenty of guerilla/terrorist action, but in the end they were crushed and had to make their peace with it and move on.