The costs of trans visibility

I don't know about the 50's (my generation is the 90's), but anyway, I never said there aren't real trans people.

I said that a significant number of the young people presenting as trans today are not well served by being pushed down the narrative of needing medical/ mental health treatment.

I was responding to what you wrote in quotations in my post, not this new idea that is not what you wrote.

And was he ever trans or not ? That's a crucial point.

You did. You said the ratio of trans is the same throughout history which means it must be the same in any generation among current living people as well.

Which means either the 18-29 or the elders are lying en masse.

So you either change the claim about the persistence of trans in history, or you tell me why you are calling the elders liars

Again if you follow the conversation I did not call them liars once. You repeatedly have based on your insistence that your own biases and logical fallacies have any bearing in reality. Not coming out is not the same thing as lying. That is your own (wrong) characterization.

Beyond that, There is a fact that is very obvious that you, someone who is bad at demography is missing completely.

It's exactly what I wrote, phrased a different way. Today, some boys who don't want to be jocks and some girls who don't want to be "girly girls" are labelling themselves as "trans" and seeking mental health/ medical interventions due to recent cultural phenomena (basically it's a fad), and not due to having an actual mental health condition. And medical interventions are probably harmful for these young people.

It doesn't mean there aren't also real trans people who benefit from medical treatment, that's a separate question.

If there is an anonymous survey done and a lot of trans people answer they are not trans, you don't consider that lying?

Why don't you let us know what is being missed completely instead of just being snarky about it?

No, I don’t consider it lying for reasons meant above.
I’m not being “snarky” about it, it’s amusing to me to read the complete arrogance of conservatives and there is no need to point to the elephant in the room to discredit the ridiculous points being made in this thread.

Why is it crucial? I think we should be inclusive and not castigate people as being fake and mentally ill when they are trans. I think the same when they are not trans. I think the same if they transition from one state to the other or vice versa.

I remember a conversation I once had with an IRL person over 10 years ago who was transitioning at the time. One of the things that surprised my then-self but sort of immediately made perfect sense was they spoke about how they were NOT completely sure that it was right, but it felt right at that time. But the choice to transition socially is often not an easy one and people can have complicated feelings as humans do about it, and that's ok too. This idea that a sort of false binary "was he ever trans or not" internet talking point just doesn't match the experiences I've had.

I think they talk about dylan less now because she’s gotten more attractive

by spaceman Bryce P

I think they talk about dylan less now because she’s gotten more attractive

Is that a picture of a mannequin?

It's a picture taken with great lighting after several hours of professionals layering lord knows how much material on top of a human-shaped canvas to achieve a desired result.

There are some pretty impressive YouTubers out there who do the same thing. The before/after shots are eerie.

This notion that senior transgender people are "lying" on anonymous surveys if they don't answer that they are transgender, imo really misses the point. First, no one can know from a survey trying to determine the percentage of transgender people by age group what percentage of trans people simply refused to take such a survey or answer questions on that topic at all. That would result in an under representation of the percentage of trans people.

Why would a group of seniors do that? Likely because when they were growing up, the social consequences of openly admitting that were severe (even more than the still often severe consequences today). There is a very good chance that they remain "in the closet" for fear of those consequences. So to think that someone who has kept the fact that they are transgender hidden away from coworkers, friends and family for decades would just admit that to a stranger calling on the phone because they assure them its anonymous is laughable.

So do they admit the truth? No. Are they liars, with the connotation of that word that they are dishonest people with no integrity? Hardly. In a way, lgbtq people who have chosen to not come out "live a lie" every day. But to call them liars because they choose to not reveal the most personal of information to others, for fear of life altering consequences, is not the usual meaning when someone calls someone else a liar as a pejorative term. Just because some survey taker asks a very personal question in no way means person has an obligation to out themselves.

That's great, browser, but it also ignores the nearly universal reality of old people not giving a single **** about what other people think of them. Strangers, in particular. Something about many decades of life experience teaching them that it doesn't actually matter what anyone else thinks of you.

So yeah, these old people are intentionally lying to strangers on the telephone because maybe someone 50 years ago made them feel self-conscious about wanting to do an activity that didn't fit stereotypical gender roles.

Okay, buddy. Sure.

The same can be said for most celebrities and models as well. There are lots of with/without make up photos where the difference is remarkable. I think the term used to be "glamour shots" but dont know if that is still in use. Of course today with photoshop and filters you dont even have to go through all that anymore.

So it's permissible to claim that a lot of actual trans people live a lie, but it's not permissible to think the opposite can be true for some young people? Is that the forum rules? Self identified gender identity can be questioned, and doubted, but not if the identity is trans?

I mean some old people still answer that they are against interracial marriage in polls, but for some reason others would cover up their gender identity

It is crucial. Because if a person can be trans only temporarily, then claims that people cannot be convinced to be trans are false.

If instead, as per forum rules and per what I think, being trans or not is a permanent characteristic and not a choice, then it means a decent number of young people who currently self identify as trans actually aren't.

Which is very important for the debate about puberty blockers, hormones and surgery, as it is exceptionally important to not give them to anyone which we aren't 100% sure is actually trans.

Which brings us back to the fact that self identification alone can't be the basis to justify trans care, at least not in minors.

Or to outright bans to trans care for minors which solve the problem completely.

It isn't about castigating or anything else, it's about whether we allow those drugs to be given to kids or not.

As per your example, we don't really allow
many permanent self modifications on minors just because "they currently feel it's all right for them to do so".

Well, being in that age group myself I can say without a doubt that there are certainly people my age who absolutely remain in the closet to this day because they dont want to be ostracized by their peers. It isnt a simple decision, to say "**** it, Im going to quit hiding it and head down to the VFW, or Elks Club, or the poker room wearing a dress because I have reached the designated dont give a **** age."

And even old people have a healthy distrust of revealing anything at all personal in nature to some stranger calling them up and swearing no one can trace the info back to them.

Sure. Most likely because the racists have a circle of friends who believe the same thing.

Pls put posts like this in the mod thread.

Thanks

Careful now, you may get a ban for that

I've heard lots of older gay people say they wish society had been more accepting of homosexuality when they were younger.

I've never heard an older person say they wish they had had the opportunity to be on cross-sex hormones or get a mastetectomy or genital surgery in their youth.

so this is why you're in thailand?