Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Can you just get on with whatever point you think you're making? I highly doubt the % of civilians killed is going to matter with where this is going. Just state what you want to state without playing this 20 questions game.
A large scale military effort is not really directly comparable to a single terrorist act. Which I think is worse has nothing to do with my statements, or your accusation that I'm racist anyways. You'll have to find a di
its not a game its a simple question.
also youre using two different definitions of terrorism
also just by the way, you didnt mention AT ALL how many people were IDF related during the concert deaths that occured on oct 7, but when I asked about how many people israel killed in retaliation, you said oh a bunch musta been hamas.
theres the racism, and using two different definitions of terrorism while refusing to answer which is worse, is also racist.
you refuse to use the same criticisms of israel that you use of Palestine, even though the situations are asymmetrical with Israel holding the power. That is racist.
Can you just get on with whatever point you think you're making? I highly doubt the % of civilians killed is going to matter with where this is going. Just state what you want to state without playing this 20 questions game.
A large scale military effort is not really directly comparable to a single terrorist act. Which I think is worse has nothing to do with my statements, or your accusation that I'm racist anyways. You'll have to find a di
Oct 7 was a large scale military effort.
No it's a game of many questions which don't really seem to lead anywhere. We played this game yesterday too and it led nowhere, meanwhile you ignored every single one of my questions...
also youre using two different definitions of terrorism
No.
also just by the way, you didnt mention AT ALL how many people were IDF related during the concert deaths that occured on oct 7, but when I asked about how many people israel killed in retaliation, you said oh a bunch musta been hamas.
No. I said almost 700 civilians were killed during the attacks as a whole, that makes it quite clear. You tried to obfuscate this when you brought up casualties in your attempt to compare a single terrorist attack to a large scale military effort. By your own logic this shows your own hypocrisy.
theres the racism, and using two different definitions of terrorism while refusing to answer which is worse, is also racist.
No. To begin with, that's still not racist. Also what you're claiming is not true anyways. Refusing to compare which is worse between 1 terrorist act and a large scale, 6 month, military operation is not racist. It's just realizing that these aren't really directly comparable, especially for something as nebulous as "worse".
you refuse to use the same criticisms of israel that you use of Palestine, even though the situations are asymmetrical with Israel holding the power. That is racist.
No. I'm not doing this, you're just making more baseless accusations. I've criticized Israel's strikes against civilians numerous times. Please gtfo with your racist accusations, it's pure nonsense.
what percentage were Hamas?
what percentage of Oct 7 were civilians? how many were killed by Israel?
We've established almost 700 civilians were killed on Oct 7. From there it's pretty easy to figure out your own question.
How many were killed by Israel? Is that at all important to this being a terrorist act committed by Hamas?
LOL and I get accused of playing word games.
700 civilians? nah
and yes, it definitely matters that Israel intentionally murdered their own civilians that day. (and still do)
Ok how many were murdered?
So here's a prime example of why no one takes you seriously and it's impossible to have a conversation with you. Regarding Israel killing their own on Oct 7, I ask:
To which you answer:
it definitely matters that Israel intentionally murdered their own civilians that day. (and still do)
You're answering a completely different question.
they attacked military outposts all along the Gaza envelope. those were the primary targets.
its not word games. you are just misinformed on who was attacked.
Ok, let's see if it's word games or not. Current Israeli operation has lasted 6 months, how many months did the October 7 terrorist act last?
How many IDF soldiers have been involved in Gaza, how many Hamas militants were involved with October 7?
How much heavy equipment has IDF used, how about Hamas on October 7?
There's a ton more factors, but this should illustrate the point. Let's see if "large scale military effort" is actually the same between these two things or if you are once again equivocating (playing word games).
they attacked military outposts all along the Gaza envelope. those were the primary targets.
its not word games. you are just misinformed on who was attacked.
No. It's just you're using your own definition for what "large scale" is. Word games.
I thought the discussion was about terrorist attack or military attack. I dont really feel lik quibbling on if it was large-scale or not.
the answer to your question is yes it matters. I dont see how you can read any other answer from that.
the answer to your question is yes it matters. I dont see how you can read any other answer from that.
OK how does Israelis killing Israelis on October 7th alter whether or not Hamas committed an act of terrorism by murdering people at a concert?
I thought the discussion was about terrorist attack or military attack. I dont really feel lik quibbling on if it was large-scale or not.
Seems really clear:
You can ask me questions. I feel like I answered all of them
You still didn’t address why your response was to criticize the 30k Palestinians for being part of Hamas but you don’t say anything about the 700 Israeli former IDF soldiers
Talking about Israel killing Israelis is a waste of time
You didn't answer a single question yesterday, and you've avoided most today. This has been a common pattern for months now.
I did not criticize the 30k Palestinians for being part of Hamas. You made a comparison of civilians murdered on October 7th with everyone killed in Gaza since October 7th. The Health Ministry does not distinguish between civilians and Hamas militants, so in order for your comparison to be fair you would need to factor that in, which you did not. Otherwise the comparison would be everyone killed on October 7th with everyone killed in Gaza since October 7th. Either way it's an impossible comparison to judge since it's comparing the actions of 1 day with the actions of 6 months using a completely nebulous metric.
I do not believe all 700 civilians were former IDF soldiers, but I do not see how that is relevant anyways.
You didn't answer a single question yesterday, and you've avoided most today. This has been a common pattern for months now.
I did not criticize the 30k Palestinians for being part of Hamas. You made a comparison of civilians murdered on October 7th with everyone killed in Gaza since October 7th. The Health Ministry does not distinguish between civilians and Hamas militants, so in order for your comparison to be fair you would need to factor
ok
OK how does Israelis killing Israelis on October 7th alter whether or not Hamas committed an act of terrorism by murdering people at a concert?
Seems really clear:
like I said, I wont quibble on large scale or not. I dont know what large scale means in terms of a military attack. I will say from what I can tell it was not a terrorist attack as it attacked military installations along a blockaded perimeter.
a hallmark of terror attacks is the intentional and indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians. so thats why it matters who actually killed them.
like I said, I wont quibble on large scale or not. I dont know what large scale means in terms of a military attack. I will say from what I can tell it was not a terrorist attack as it attacked military installations along a blockaded perimeter.
Do you remember our argument over whether or not this was a premeditated attack? Do you still believe it wasn't premeditated?
a hallmark of terror attacks is the intentional and indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians. so thats why it matters who actually killed them.
OK, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Are you suggesting that they were all killed by Israel? Is there some percentage where if a group shows up and starts killing innocent civilians at a concert, but the responding group also kills some percentage that the first group is left off the hook for the innocent civilians they killed? I'm struggling to follow. What exactly is the sequence of events you believe occurred, specifically at the concert, which makes it so that IDF responding to Hamas means that Hamas did not commit a terrorist act?
lol, Vic is a half a step away from claiming 10/7 was a false flag op, extraordinary.
it was a premediated attack on military outposts. they didnt even know there was a concert going on so how could it be premeditated?
ofc there is a percentage of civilian death that factors into if I would consider it a terrorist attack.
but now we are just doing semantics. in real life, every single action from an oppressed people is a terrorist attack. and every action by a Western state is legit. I am going more by the spirit of the meaning of terrorism rather than the de facto Western rules.
lol, Vic is a half a step away from claiming 10/7 was a false flag op, extraordinary.
gonna need you to show your work on where I have ever said anything to the sort.
all of my posts have said the exact opposite. it was a legitimate and planned military operation that was a massive success on achieving military objectives.
so again, stop lying and learn to read.
Ah ok, because you kept arguing about how it being not premeditated made it far more forgivable. So the attack on the military outposts WAS premeditated, and the attacking of innocent civilians WAS NOT premeditated; it was an attack of opportunity when Hamas saw a target rich environment (which somehow makes it more forgivable).
When Hamas entered that target rich environment and started murdering civilians, IDF's response ended up killing some civilians as well, which somehow means that the attack on the concert was not a terrorist act.
I think I follow, thanks for clarifying.
its still questionable how much civilian murder they did
When Hamas entered that target rich environment and started murdering civilians, IDF's response ended up killing some civilians as well,
like you realize how this is a very biased and uncharitable assumption masked as a fact?
How many do you think it's safe to say isn't questionable, and Hamas definitely murdered them? 650? 600? 500? 400? 300?
No, I did not realize that. Why do you believe Hamas deviated from the original plan and instead went to the concert to murder civilians?
Concert was in the way
Civilian buffer zone if you will.
How many do you think it's safe to say isn't questionable, and Hamas definitely murdered them? 650? 600? 500? 400? 300?
No, I did not realize that. Why do you believe Hamas deviated from the original plan and instead went to the concert to murder civilians?
they didnt deviate from the plan. they fully achieved the objectives of the plan.
I dont know why they went to the concert after defeating the Israeli defenses militarily.
