Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Guys, we did this pages and pages ago, I don't know why we're doing it again.
Pages and pages ago I explained that Baghdad's economy basically ran on Jews (that's some hyperbole, but the economic indicators are spectacular). Most of the 130k Jews that fled Iraq when the Iraqis copied the Nazis, were in Baghdad. Pick a country around there with Jewish communities thousands of years old, this happened to them too. The Iraqi Jews left and lost EVERYTHING. So did all their cousins in other countries in the same spot.
They didn't NAKBA NAKBA!
They got **** done.
People get displaced in wars and racial conflicts literally all the time. Like I said, 10x displaced Sudanese right now you will never Nakba a minute for. What's unique to the Nakba is it got a name and it gets used to try and rewrite a lost war that thankfully we do have ample evidence to review.
What the Palestinians really needed was a win they didn't get in that war. I regret they were on the losing side of a war they started (clearly).
Rafiki, what about the 300k Palestinians expelled before the May 15, 1948 war? That's not from losing a war. It was ethnic cleansing. Have you even heard of Plan Dalet?
You must have heard of Deir Yassin. That was in April, 1948, before the Arab Legion invasion.
Why did I think I was dealing with a fact-based person?
I havent heard of these things
So no engagement with the 300k expelled before the Arab invasion, key moments like Deir Yassin, Plan Dalet. You are in serious denial. Read Benny Morris. He's on your side, but recognizes what happened.
By the way, "pages and pages ago" I pointed out that Avi Shlaim was one of the Iraqi Jews who fled to Israel. You still haven't read him, either.
Bill the Civil War started in 1947 (with roots far older). In the middle of a war, people get displaced.
Look how many Ukranians are displaced right now. Are we going to Nakba for them in 2100? Or will we say that a massive war moved peoples the way we do in every other war? I hope we find a way to live that long so I can see if we NAKBA NAKBA for the Ukranians from their war.
There's no word for the Jews who lost everything from Iraq. Just life. That's what happens when you're on the losing side and don't get it back. 75 years later, guess what? You're still not getting it back. You can forever refugee and forever Nakba. Or you can try something else.
I really don't understand the argument here.
Part of why the Arabs were scared about the impending war was they knew their fellow Arabs elsewhere were expelling Jews. I am not entirely sure how that's incompatible with the idea the Israelis were also pushing the Arabs out, albeit, on a relative scale anyway, in a more restrained fashion.
If you're argument was they didn't quite kill every Arab in sight and/or didn't forcefully evict Arabs from their homes village by village... then... okay? But are you denying the Israelis did move in with quite a bit of military force and did very little to assure the Arabs that they aren't staging for war to evict all Arabs from the area? If you were an Arab living in the area, that probably looks like a message telling you to get the F out, especially since your fellow Arabs in rest of the middle east were already busy evicting Jews.
Or is your argument just generically that all Arabs (or near enough all) that fled were at war with the would be Israelis and they were simply losers?
Bill the Civil War started in 1947 (with roots far older). In the middle of a war, people get displaced.
Look how many Ukranians are displaced right now. Are we going to Nakba for them in 2100? Or will we say that a massive war moved peoples the way we do in every other war? I hope we find a way to live that long so I can see if we NAKBA NAKBA for the Ukranians from their war.
What are you babbling about here? The Ukraine thread is down the hall.
That's the thing, The Arabs were suuuuuper happy to evict their Jews or make their situations untenable and force them to flee at the same time.
We're doing the equivalent of "every Israeli is an IDF and every Palestinian is a civilian". But we're doing it Nakba flavor.
All we're doing is colonizer/colonized, oppressor/oppressed. You guys are SURE the Jews are oppressors here. I know enough to know I won't convince you otherwise.
Arabs needed to win that war and pull of their own Nakba first. If you're gonna take that shot, don't miss.
I'm saying in 2100, nobody is going to cry Nakba for all the Ukranians who were turned into refugees. Because all that is is a strategy (carefully crafted for years now). You're part of a playbook you don't know you're a part of.
A significant % of the the Arabs obviously stayed so clearly a lot of Arabs in the area didn't have problems with Jews.
I'd wager a lot of those that fled just fled due to uncertainty and fear.
Those who fled due to uncertainty and fear, at least, deserve to call the 1948 war Nakba.
Bill the Civil War started in 1947 (with roots far older). In the middle of a war, people get displaced.
That's a goalpost shift but whateva.
The people did not get displaced willy-nilly. It was systematic. The villages then got bulldozed or renamed in Hebrew.
The village of Deir Yassin refused to let armed Arabs defend it because they had a peace agreement with the nearby settlement. Then while the Palmach stood guard on the roads, Irgun went in and slaughtered 200 people. It wasn't something that just happened because there was a war on. It was a warning.
I'll make you a deal. Choose a book I have to read and I'll choose one for you.
i get why people would condemn the 1948 actions as described itt, but its weird to have a problem with the forced deportation and/or liquidation of an enemy and also be a supporter of hamas, whose policy is the forced deportation and/or liquidation of their enemy.
must be (((some other factor))) which makes one bad and the other good
note that i refer to victor only, who as far as i can tell is the only person that has openly declared his support for hamas/holocaust 2 itt
i get why people would condemn the 1948 actions as described itt, but its weird to have a problem with the forced deportation and/or liquidation of an enemy and also be a supporter of hamas, whose policy is the forced deportation and/or liquidation of their enemy.
must be (((some other factor))) which makes one bad and the other good
note that i refer to victor only, who as far as i can tell is the only person that has openly declared his su
I genuinely don't know which places didn't get nakba'd on earth. There are probably some Islands I'm not aware of that didn't.
But I suspect that in 2100, there's like ONE that will still talk about it.
And btw Trolly if you think the Nakba was a Holocaust, buuuuuuuuuuuuuddy. That's also some Victor level rewrite of events. I don't know how many died, low 5 digits I'm guessing? This present war in Gaza is a much bigger death toll. And in neither case were people walked into ovens/gas chambers/gravel pits/cattle cars or systematically killed for their genetics. You guys gotta ease up on the hyperbole. They lost a war (they started) and lost their homes. Call it what it is. Words do matter. Hamas started this war too, if we want to get into it.
THIS generation in Holland is the one that is 100% cool with the Germans. Took some time. But even they got there. Heck I'M COOL with the Germans now. I don't Nakba them ever. I'm also not a Jihadist. Eventually, you move on.
Imagine the Dutch had as much of a hard on for Germany as the Palestinians have for Israel? It would be weird, wouldn't it?
Gaza wasn't occupied Oct 6th Bill. And it need not be in the future either. They were invited to live in Israel as citizens. That's not "occupation". And it never had to look anything like that. The peaceful Arabs living and working and voting in Israel aren't "occupied". Neither are the Christians.
i get why people would condemn the 1948 actions as described itt, but its weird to have a problem with the forced deportation and/or liquidation of an enemy and also be a supporter of hamas, whose policy is the forced deportation and/or liquidation of their enemy.
must be (((some other factor))) which makes one bad and the other good
note that i refer to victor only, who as far as i can tell is the only person that has openly declared his su
fact check: Hamas standing proposal since 2005 is the 1967 border and long term cease fire
I said the Nabka was a clear-cut example of ethnic cleansing, which is not even a slightly controversial take. In response, you're having an all-day tantrum where you deny the suffering of Palestinian people, yell "NAKBKANABKABAKANAN" and make the most childish whatabout arguments I've seen anywhere.
Israel's standing proposal to the Hamas participants of Oct 7th
Spoiler
you are no longer for this earth. At least one of us is honest Victor
