Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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No one on that side is ever going to admit a genocide is in progress until every single Gazan has been killed or expelled, by which time it will be too late of course and they probably won't be posting itt any more.
No one on that side is ever going to admit a genocide is in progress until every single Gazan has been killed or expelled, by which time it will be too late of course and they probably won't be posting itt any more.
you need intent, which is lacking, so even if every gazean is killed it wouldn't be genocide anyway.
also because gazean isn't an ethnicity
No one on that side is ever going to admit a genocide is in progress until every single Gazan has been killed or expelled, by which time it will be too late of course and they probably won't be posting itt any more.
Of the 2.2M, how many civilians need to die for it to be genocide? What do you think is a number that holds water?
I won't even muddy the waters with intent/human shield sort of stuff.
No one on that side is ever going to admit a genocide is in progress until every single Gazan has been killed or expelled, by which time it will be too late of course and they probably won't be posting itt any more.
Hamas has kill all the Jews in their charter. Notice the intent of their genocide. Did Hamas drop leaflets and call the Israelis to warn them they were on the way on October 7th?
I agree 100%
Displacing 1 million people off of land you are trying to illegally take needs to be recognized for what it is. This is the next stage of genocide.
Are you ready to have an honest discussion?
I don't think Israel is trying to take the land but they will have to occupy it for many years because of the actions of these people. I predict Gaza will be similar to how the Israelis control much of the West Bank. It will be check point city. I doubt many if any Gazans will be allowed again to work in Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-airs-i...
Here's the father-son rape team from Oct 7th. Raped and then killed the victim.
I don't know how you don't go to war to eliminate that sort of evil, I truly don't. So although we can agree that better care needs to be taken in this war. The war is a just war. This is a fight to make sure nobody's daughter has to be raped and killed again over there. And they have a right to this.
Of the 2.2M, how many civilians need to die for it to be genocide? What do you think is a number that holds water?
The internationally recognized definition of genocide is not hard to look up. There isn't a minimum body count (though if 2 million dead ain't it, WTF are we doing here), which I suspect you already know.
I agree that they are not trying to take the land. They have already taken it.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-airs-i...
Here's the father-son rape team from Oct 7th. Raped and then killed the victim.
I don't know how you don't go to war to eliminate that sort of evil, I truly don't. So although we can agree that better care needs to be taken in this war. The war is a just war. This is a fight to make sure nobody's daughter has to be raped and kil
Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (...) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (...) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (...) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood.
Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favorable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favorable to its own side. (...) The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward. (...) Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must, of course, be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula.
The internationally recognized definition of genocide is not hard to look up. There isn't a minimum body count (though if 2 million dead ain't it, WTF are we doing here), which I suspect you already know.
need intent to wipe all the people you have access to of the same ethnicity though.
can be a small number sure if that's all you have at hand. but if you have 2m civilians in a war zone and you care in any way to preserve any of them that's already not genocide, because genocide implies the intent to wipe them completely, it's not complicated.
genocide doesn't mean "mass killings"
I don't think Israel is trying to take the land but they will have to occupy it for many years because of the actions of these people. I predict Gaza will be similar to how the Israelis control much of the West Bank. It will be check point city. I doubt many if any Gazans will be allowed again to work in Israel.
it could be occupied by others. the Un, the USA, nato, some coalition of the brave, even Arab states if some magical agreement happens.
the only sure thing is it won't be self governed by current residents until terrorism has been eradicated
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/23...
The Biden administration is trying to convince Arab states such as Egypt, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates to join the peacekeeping force, a second official said, as regional countries continually demand that the U.S. have a heavy hand in Gaza’s postwar future. “It’ll be easier to get them to come along if we’re there playing a part, and we’re prepared to play that role,” the official said about what Arab countries want from the U.S.
The official added that there’s also broad agreement between the U.S., Israel and regional players to help form a Palestinian Council, comprising Palestinians from Gaza, to serve as an interim governing structure. Spain, Ireland and Norway plan to recognize such a country next week, an unmistakable sign that there’s growing interest among American allies to push for a sovereign Palestinian state.
Israel must also support the establishment of the force in Gaza, a hard sell as Netanyahu and his far-right government oppose anything that has the trappings of a Palestinian state. It’s unclear what alternative there would be, however, as all officials agreed desperate conditions in Gaza require a peacekeeping force.
you need intent, which is lacking, so even if every gazean is killed it wouldn't be genocide anyway.
also because gazean isn't an ethnicity
There was intent. Gaza is a textbook genocide. This (Israeli) expert goes through it point by point and ticks off all the boxes.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in his opinion.
Is someone else picking up the rape denial vacancy that Vic's absence has created? Is that what's happening?
The internationally recognized definition of genocide is not hard to look up. There isn't a minimum body count (though if 2 million dead ain't it, WTF are we doing here), which I suspect you already know.
Ok but surely at 1000 nobody cries genocide. So what is the number where you feel it starts to resemble one?
Ok but surely at 1000 nobody cries genocide. So what is the number where you feel it starts to resemble one?
I don't know how else to explain to you that there isn't a minimum body count. Again, you can easily look up the UN's working definition of terms like genocide and ethnic cleansing for yourself.
I think it’s kinda like which side is doing the most killing
Idf has killed like 50-100k over last 20 years
Palestine has killed like 1500
Between the two of those counties, clearly one is much more able to commit genocide than the other. But maybe they are both guilty. It’s certainly possible
It is significant that it’s the largest death of Jews since WW2
I am seeing the news reports of the confessions regarding the rapes and murders online. Its seems to be a developing story.
seems legit
There was intent. Gaza is a textbook genocide. This (Israeli) expert goes through it point by point and ticks off all the boxes.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in his opinion.
Any tweet that tries to tell us how we should feel is clickbait. "This should terrify you". I'll tell you what should terrify us (Not clickbait), It's how ignorant the world has become. Israel is going after Hamas. They aren't going after the civilians. If you are a civilian who gets killed you probably were helping Hamas. Shame on you for getting your young children killed. This guy has no clue what he is talking about. He is an expert in genocide so he is only looking to build a case to give himself relevance. This is clearly not genocide. Unfortunately it's people like this who are brainwashing the ignorant college students.
Good luck with a genocide prosecution.
I am seeing the news reports of the confessions regarding the rapes and murders online. Its seems to be a developing story.
Same day as the footage of the five 19 year old girls in their pjs being taken, all live on gopro. Yes, enlisted IDF women unarmed and off duty. But the footage is a tough watch.
It's been a pretty brutal reminder of what the IDF is fighting for.
