Israel/Palestine thread

Wait, is that accepted that Israel was funding Hamas?

Yes, decades ago they chose the lesser of two evils that turned into the bigger of all evils. Much like the USA and Bin Laden.

Nobody would then suggest the USA funded 9/11. Same as no sane person suggests Israel funded 10/7

Things change with time, same as it always was. Egypt is changing before our very eyes. Once upon a time they may have been Israel's biggest regional ally. Now they might be a failed state filling politician's pockets with the moral equivalent of blood diamond money.

People suggest the us funded 9/11 all the time.

You didn’t know that?

No, you can't altogether compare the Nakba to the Shoah. There's a differerence of both scale and intent, even though the mentality of murderous Zionists like Begin (who chose to fight on Hitler's side rather than with the Allies) was not dissimilar to that of the Nazis and was even sympathetic to Nazism because they thought it would further their cause and prove the case for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. (They failed to work out that Hitler was planning to come there and eliminate them, regarding Palestine merely as a convenient place to put Jews until he got round to killing them.) The Zionists certainly did commit the occasional mass murder in the course of their ethnic-cleansing campaign in '48 (notably at Deir Yassin, a disgusting crime for which no one was ever convicted), but on a far smaller scale than the industrially organised crimes of the Nazis, and with the intent of local removal rather than the erasure of all Palestinians from the face of the Earth.

No smart people I know, do

What about nakba2 to the shoah?

You mean the present war?

What elements of the present war look like:

-gasing or cooking people in giant ovens to exterminate them
-performing scientific experiments on them
-using them as slaves
-lining them up in front of massive holes they dug themselves, and machine gunning them
-In many communities, nearly 100% fatality rate

And all based on a specific genetic and religious trait, with no exceptions.

They just moved 1.1M Gazans out of Rafah to aid areas so they could go destroy the tunnels. Does that sound like the Shoah to you? These things are not the same. If this was a mass extermination, those 1.1M would have been left in place.

On Oct 7th, 4000+ armed men under the cover of 10k+ missiles and mortars, invaded Israel. They're at war now. These things are not the same.

Is there any conflict one can compare that to?

I did once mention the Battle of Manila. In a venn diagram situation, it has a lot of the same things.

Size, population, hostages, seige, urban setting, great tragedy, etc

In the Battle of Manila, 100k civilians died.

Do you think helping , funding , nurturing a group of people and then exploiting/killing them so your countries military industrial complex gains is akin to slavery?

Right now the Israeli economy is in total shambles. A huge part of the population isn't working. A huge part is evacuated. The agriculture sector is on life support. Other segments can't find any workers at all (no more foreign workers). The population is going to have to foot a massive tax bill to help support the fight against SEVEN different enemies on 7 fronts.

And you suggest economic gains.

This reminds me of the people who suggested governments stood to gain something from COVID. Almost every COVID government is out, or about to be out. The present Israeli government and every military leader in it, is also on literal political life support.

Usually these wild theories take 30 seconds to dismantle. This whole thing has been an absolute catastrophe for Israel, and at a time where they have grave concerns in the North.

I said gains. If you think the MIC only cares about money then you’re wrong like donkey Kong

Trolly is arguing that Jews are safe in a lot of places, and I'm saying it's still natural for people to want to come together and form political units so the formation of Israel was kind of normal in the course of human events. Trolly is right though that these kind of events tend to be violent disruptive events and not libertarian gatherings of like minded people respecting other's rights even in the best of circumstances.

My other point was against anyone saying that Israel was the only way to protect Jewish people. That's obviously not the case, even if one sees the formation of Israel as a good thing.

So what is the alternative to Israel (This sort of moot since Israel is not going to just disappear, I hope we can agree on that at least)? I don’t think this is obvious, and if it is I’m not grasping it from your posts.

Trolly is just straight up wrong as it’s not safe to be openly Jewish in large parts of the world. Israel’s existence is assurance for the foreseeable future that there will be a safe place for Jews. Just because in the present day it’s not the only place does not defeat its purpose or whatever you’re arguing. His hypothetical arguments about certain countries not existing is invalid because they do exist and no one questions that.

Idk who is arguing that Israel’s formation was peaceful, there was literally a war over it.

That's not my position, and I certainly recognize there are a lot of people who want to kill Jews out there. Someone shot up a synagogue in the US not that long ago, we have at least one American Congresswoman who spouts idiotic antisemetic crap.

Sorry, I do not want to misrepresent what you’re saying.

In the present day, there’s a short list of countries that are truly safe for Jews namely Israel, the US, and maybe Canada. And the US and Canada might not be in a few decades or less due to rising levels of white nationalism.

It’s not looking to get better as a lot of the people empowered by the Free Palestine movement actually hate Jews, not Zionists, Jews.

All of the people I have met that say they hate Jews are white guys

Not sure if I’ve ever met a Palestinian that’s said that but I’ve never been close enough to a Palestinian person where they would confide that in me

My exp doesn’t matter not sure why I wrote it

For someone visibly Jewish? Kippah, payot, etc?

That's a big no right now in many many places in the country. For someone like me? It's fine if I keep my mouth mostly shut.

Certainly it's not safe to be Jewish and express any sort of solidarity with the only Jewish country out there. You can be Jewish, with "conditions". Condition 1: You can't support the country where half the Jews on earth live.

Pretty wild these days. At the movies maybe 1 or 2 people will stand for the King song. 10 years ago not standing for that song you could be in legit physical danger.

Sadly, this is probably true. I’m lucky to live in a relatively diverse and “accepting” part of the country and even in my neighborhood, someone spray painted a swastika on the entrance sign a few years ago.

In the nakba a ton of people were displaced (hundreds of thousands), 15k killed (including militaries and in general men who fought in the war).

That's 0.25% of the deaths of the Jewish holocaust.

Any attempt to claim what happened to arabs in the area in 1946-48 was even remotely close to the Jewish holocaust is either holocaust denial or a complete fabrication of history.

Jews are safer than in past centuries in various counteies but nowhere they are as safe as say, Japanese ethnicity people are in Japan.

And the safety of Jews in the USA or the EU can change quickly with political will. For example in the EU we are importing millions of people from countries where majorities would love to see Jews exterminated worldwide.

Italy is safer for Jews than the listed countries (just because there are so few of them, actual organized active antisemitism is rare). Japan is as well