Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I'd suggest thinking about what is its that turns some people into terrorists.
It's not like they wake up one morning and think "You know what, **** the family, **** the job and my future, terrorism has a good career path for me".
the people that run the palestinian state teach their kids that the killing of jews is the most important and most holy of goals, and that holocaust 2.0 is necessary for their freedom. its that
they should stop it. if they cant stop it, as seems likely, they should be killed until they stop doing it
Scared? That's the leftist way of treating disgust on the right.
Now imagine a confederate flag on capitol hill, that's the Palestinian flag on the duomo di Milano.
It's not about being scared. But you know that. It's about having an enemy we need to eliminate.
They illegally deface our monuments with their symbols, and then some people ask why i feel at war with them if i am not a Jew
Well, it's easily taken down and no harm done. I notice the woke idiots managed to hang it the wrong way up, which is a bit insulting. The red triangle should be on the left. It is originally the flag of the Arab Revolt of 1917 (that whole Lawrence of Arabia thing, with the Arabs rising on the Allied side against the Ottoman Turks) and was reputedly designed by Sir Mark Sykes, then British Cabinet Adviser on Middle Eastern Affairs. Versions of it now serve as the national flags of a number of Arab states.
Really seems like there's two ways to go about it. People in the West Bank and Gaza aren't going to be granted political rights by Israel, they're not going to be absorbed willingly by any of the surrounding countries, they do seem to have their own ideas about who they are apart from their neighboring countries and they're not going away any time soon. Seems like a good candidate to grant self determination to, even if there is no first pr
They don't seem to have their own ideas, they are like 4.5m people who speak the same language and have the same religion and can't even abide to the same electoral results.
If anything there might be some claim of giving one state to Gaza and one to the west Bank. But one state to Gaza+ the west bank is asking for trouble on purpose.
Now that said, the entire Jerusalem is obviously going to stay fully Israeli right?
We aren't going to give any of these two states sovereignty over such an important piece of land.
Well, it's easily taken down and no harm done. I notice the woke idiots managed to hang it the wrong way up, which is a bit insulting. The red triangle should be on the left. It is originally the flag of the Arab Revolt of 1917 (that whole Lawrence of Arabia thing, with the Arabs rising on the Allied side against the Ottoman Turks) and was reputedly designed by Sir Mark Sykes, then British Cabinet Adviser on Middle Eastern Affairs. Versions
Yes it's a generic symbol of Arab uprising against the west.
You know the anti-ottoman meaning disappeared very soon.
In the heart of one of the most important Italian cities.
"No harm is done" if you believe symbols have no value.
And there is a high probability perpetrators are domestic, which is far worse ofc.
Btw if we want to go with original symbols then those funny guys with short hairs and with the hooked cross are celebrating the sun.
Really seems like there's two ways to go about it. People in the West Bank and Gaza aren't going to be granted political rights by Israel, they're not going to be absorbed willingly by any of the surrounding countries, they do seem to have their own ideas about who they are apart from their neighboring countries and they're not going away any time soon. Seems like a good candidate to grant self determination to, even if there is no first pr
The biggest problem of this type of analysis is that you have absolutely no theory of mind for who the Palestinian leadership is, what they want, or even what their capabilities are.
You assume Palestinians are a cohesive society that wants a peaceful state alongside Israel, and will set up a functional govt/society, that has the ability and will to control violence.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest any of these assumptions are true; and a tremendous amount of evidence 0/3 are true.
Gaza is what Palestinian self determination will provide. Popularly supported, well-funded and well-armed theocratic militants devoted to the destruction of Israel, and little will or ability to form a functional society. And there is nothing to suggest a secular govt could or would be able to exert any control. Given the WB proximity to Israel's main population centers and elevation, allowing the WB to turn into Gaza would literally be suicidal for Israel.
21st century Islamism has been an absolute disaster for Arab nations. Look around, nothing but failed states or failing states; with the rare exception of the tremendously wealthy, small population Gulf monarchies, where there is tremendous authoritarian control over the populace. And because of aggressive propaganda/radicalization efforts; Palestinian society is even less likely than places like Yemen and Lebanon (both failed states) to form functional polities.
I don't need to
But let me ask you this
Why did 5 arab nations attack Israel when they accepted the plan?
Because the Jews were busy killing and expelling Arabs en masse at the time, which understandably made the Arabs angry. You may think it would have been politically smarter for the Arabs to accept the UN Partition Plan and leave that area to the Jews, and maybe it would, but, as things turned out in 1967, the Jews didn't really accept the Plan either but only pretended to, and they had their eyes on a lot more land than the UN allotted them and were determined to seize it.
I don't have to imagine Confederate flags flying over government buildings in America, what's your point?
That if people illegally put that on a public building in the USA you would be disgusted by that, and it wouldn't be because of fear.
You are even disgusted if they legally do that
No, against the Ottoman Turks. And, to reiterate, it forms the basis of a number of Arab national flags.
In the heart of one of the most important Italian cities.
So what? It's probably gone by now.
"No harm is done" if you believe symbols have no value.
And there is a high probability perpetrators are domestic, which is far worse ofc.
No harm is done to the historic building, and I should think the 'perpetrators' are indeed 'domestic' or they probably wouldn't have hung the flag upside down.
Btw if we want to go with original symbols then those funny guys with short hairs and with the hooked cross are celebrating the sun.
Italy was allied to the Third Reich until the autumn of 1943.
They sorta do have a state in practical sense which is what caused the worst antisemite massacre since the Nazis, yes, that's the whole problem.
Along with 18 years of an horrible life for residents, entirely caused by Hamas not Israel (WB real incomes were the same as Jordan, Gaza was under half that, pre 10 7).
Which is why Israel should not leave Gaza until it's absolutely certain Hamas and anyone who ever agreed with Hamas can ever again hold power there.
The biggest problem of this type of analysis is that you have absolutely no theory of mind for who the Palestinian leadership is, what they want, or even what their capabilities are.
You assume Palestinians are a cohesive society that wants a peaceful state alongside Israel, and will set up a functional govt/society, that has the ability and will to control violence.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest any of these assumptions are true;
Neither one of them is a state. Can't give them a state because they might be terrorists, but the place that isn't a state also has terrorists running it. Damned if you do, damned it you don't. Guess ethnic cleansing is the only way.
Because the Jews were busy killing and expelling Arabs en masse at the time, which understandably made the Arabs angry. You may think it would have been politically smarter for the Arabs to accept the UN Partition Plan and leave that area to the Jews, and maybe it would, but, as things turned out in 1967, the Jews didn't really accept the Plan either but only pretended to, and they had their eyes on a lot more land than the UN allotted them
The Jews as you refer to them as (the nation of Israel) are accepting the 1949 armistice agreement that was signed by the Arab countries that started the war
The arabs attacked because they were not accepting a jewish state and declared that the Un partition plan was void
Israel declaring independence and gaining territory in defensive wars which were within the rules of the 1949 agreement does not mean that didn't accept the plan. The plan changed when the Arab nations said no deal
These are all facts
Neither one of them is a state. Can't give them a state because they might be terrorists, but the place that isn't a state also has terrorists running it. Damned if you do, damned it you don't. Guess ethnic cleansing is the only way.
They can become a state when they
Don't have a terrorist government
Accept Israel as a state
Don't insist on Jerusalem as its capitol
They can become a state when they
Don't have a terrorist government
Accept Israel as a state
Don't insist on Jerusalem as its capitol
There's already a place that satisfices at least two out of the three (and come on the third one isn't a deal breaker) and it's not a state either, and let's be honest, Israel will never willingly recognize it as a state.
Israel tried to give Gaza to egypt
They won't accept them being a terrorist state with means to destroy them no
We have said ad nauseum that the division of area c will be a sticking point as well as Jerusalem, but in general a non Netanyahu regime in Israel is not polarly opposed to a Palestinian state
And the 3rd one not being a deal breaker is laughable
Most of this conflict is and always has been about Jerusalem
If jews were able to pray in Jerusalem from 1948-1967 things would be much much different today
The biggest problem of this type of analysis is that you have absolutely no theory of mind for who the Palestinian leadership is, what they want, or even what their capabilities are.
You assume Palestinians are a cohesive society that wants a peaceful state alongside Israel, and will set up a functional govt/society, that has the ability and will to control violence.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest any of these assumptions are true;
I don't know. My theory of mind supposes that there is some way of political resolution. What I haven't heard is any kind of political resolution that isn't going to lead to ethnic cleansing. So far there hasn't been any proposal that doesn't involve permanently occupying Gaza, which if it's the same as occupying the West Bank is tantamount to slow ethnic cleansing with settlers building outposts and them and the military brutalizing people with impunity. For vast majorities of Israeli society a recognition of a Palestinian state is an anathema, hell even not killing children isn't even discussed, while for the right wing there's eschatological mission to accomplish by taking the West Bank and Gaza. My theory of mind is that there's nothing in Israeli society to hold back the right wing, and the middle will go along because of their more neutral reasoning, the Palestinians had it coming, free real estate lowers housing costs, resources to be taken, etc.
Sound plausible?
