Israel/Palestine thread

Wrong. This is the **** mainstream Republicans believe.

More proof that people lose their minds when they start believing that genetics should play a determining factor in global events.

What are you talking about? A significant amount of countries use genetics (or a proxy of it) to determine if you are allowed to be a citizen and have rights. And you seem pretty agnostic about it all. I dont see any argument Japan or Saudi Arabia has collectively lost its mind.

The point is Muslim Palestinians are mostly a group of colonizers slightly less recent than Israeli Jews. Given everything that happened during and after WWII, there is literally no coherent argument they have a singular "right of return." This is all just hypocritical tribalism and incoherent ideology.

Familial relationships are a small subset of the genetics in the post being discussed. We should be against the revolting idea of blood and soil that so infects the debate around Israel. Also adopting the white supremacist rhetoric for one’s own ends may probably end quite badly further down the road.

What are you talking about, previously banned poster?

"Whites" are literally the only group of humans that have ever tried to rise above the revolting ideas of blood and soil. Just attacking "white supremacy" and being completely agnostic towards how the rest of the world thinks and works, and has always worked, doesn't make you virtuous. It just makes you a hypocrite that implicitly supports all the bad ideas you claim to find revolting.

What do you think happens when your ideas win and western civlization is destroyed? The entire world goes right back to the "blood and soil," days, which isn't even that far of leap since most of the world, especially the Arab world and MENA which never even attempted to abandon those ideas.

The Palestinians are fighting to retake Israel exactly because they believe they have a genetic link to the land, given by God. The entire premise of their struggle which you support is a genetic argument.

The land the Palestinians are trying to conquer was lost 4 generations ago. What other argument is there besides a (non accurate) genetic one they get to just fight forever to get it back, and the rest of the world has to pay for it? Unless you literally think the land was given to them by God for eternity. If that is your argument, I am not going to bother trying to argue faith.

Hezbollah has claimed to destroy an Iron Dome battery. Most of you Islamist supporters think this is a good thing that will somehow make the world a better place. But that is because your map of the world is completely broken.

Every victory Islamists get is in truth a disaster for everyone, especially Palestinian (and soon Lebanese) civilians. What good has ever come from an Islamic group getting any victory in recent history? Absolutely nothing good ever comes from it.

ISIS, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, Houthis, Janjaweed, Hamas, Hezbollah. Every time they win, the world loses. But go on ahead and be agnostic about this, or outright support it, while being laser focused on hating Israel.

So we can land on a source that satisfies everyone (European Council on Foreign Relations)

https://ecfr.eu/publication/beyond-proxi...

Beyond proxies: Iran’s deeper strategy in Syria and Lebanon
June 5th 2024

"To prevent this escalation, European leaders and policymakers will need a comprehensive picture of Iran’s strategies and influence in Lebanon and Syria. This paper contributes to building that picture by examining Iran’s involvement in those two countries and its implications for the wider Middle East. It explores the strategic context of Iran’s involvement, assesses Tehran’s approaches towards both friends and foes in Lebanon and Syria, and analyses recent developments as well as possible future scenarios.

The paper argues that Europeans – the European Union and its member states, but also other engaged European actors including the United Kingdom, Norway, and Switzerland – should now formulate their responses to Iran’s role in the Levant around three goals: 1) in the immediate-term, prevent further escalation in Lebanon and Syria and a wider war in the Middle East; 2) in the medium-term, increase conditional support for actors in both countries, necessarily including those allied with Iran, to advance local stabilisation goals; and 3) over the longer-term, intensify European support for structural reform in Lebanon and Syria that can slowly dilute Iran’s dominance."

The paper is DENSE. But if someone wants to really understand what's happening here with Hezbollah among others, read it. It's not written by sinister Jews or anything, one of the authors is Hamidreza Azizi.

Like all civilisations, western civilisation has to adapt. If it fails to do that it will be replaced by something else, and rightly so. It's you and your bedmates who are sowing the seeds of its downfall in your resistance to progressive ideas, not me.

The same awful blood and soil nonsense as many Jewish Israelis.

So, I agree. There's a toxic surplus of stupidity and horrible ideas across the board.

I realize some people thought humans without blond hairs were inferior to human with blond hairs.

And?

You realize some surgeons did horrible things to people in concentration camps, but from that it doesn't follow that medical surgery is all horrible?

Same for genetics and humanity .

Keep negating objective truths about **** sapiens if you sleep better doing that, but don't ask we do the same

by jalfrezi P

More blood on Hamas hands.

Maybe Hamas could stop making camp in facilities used by civilians.

Or not, but if they don't Israel is 100% right bombing each and every one of those Hamas compounds.

And every civilian dead is dead because of Hamas choosing to do that, and no one else fault or responsibility.

You don't negotiate with terrorists and you don't negotiate with terrorists who use human shields especially

Like all powerful enough civilisations in their area or worldwide, the west can only fail from within. Ie the enemies that truly matter are the domestic ones, and the more powerful we are, the more that's true.

We became the most powerful society in the history of the world because of X. We can disagree on X to some degree but it must, necessarily, be something that was in place when we reached and surpassed everyone else, and necessarily, it can't be anything that happened in our societies in the last 60 years.

This *automatically, objectively* makes progressivism almost certainly "more wrong" than conservatism and reactionarism in all succesful societies, about any topic that already existed 1 century ago. While the opposite is true if you are a failed society that loses against others repeatedly of course.

So, telling palestinians "you need radical change in your society to live a good life" is objectively true. Telling that to americans is *objectively wrong*.

So what did we do , what's the X (which can be a combination of many things) that made us by a huge margin the best society that ever existed in human history? we can discuss X, but it can't be present progressivism DEFINITIONALLY lol.

So who could destroy our society, the best that was ever devised in the history of man? people who deny it is the best, and people who want radical change for our societies (they are mostly the same people).

So what's lacking now , what's eroding X? antibodies against domestic enemies. We always had anti-western people in the west but we usually dealt with them (part of X is having open enough societies that the flow of ideas isn't sklerotic and we can improve at the margins, steadily, on our previous successes; that unfortunately causes some people to become domestic enemies) .

Now we stopped doing it, and we import anti western foreigners instead to live among us.

We barely managed to stop material marxism from devouring our societies. We thought we had won it all in the early 90s but evil enemies of humanity were busy working in academia buildign the most nefarious marxist variant , let's call it omicron marxism, ie wokism.

They spread very well and very far infecting a lot of people and institutions with their literal anti-western and anti-human ideas spanning from the denial of biological sex to the idea that any bad outcome of some group in society is always someone else fault (the denial of agency of human groups is a key anti-western and anti-human idea).

They were winning, and winning fast until recently. Now there is some pushback in the USA and a little bit in the EU. We were close to the precipice and we might still be able to save our societies from disaster but we have to act swiftly and with large numbers of people and mercilessly.

That's about it, the only actual real threat to the west (and so to humanity wellbeing, being the west currently the source of almost anythign that makes life worthwhile for human beings) is progressivism as embodied by the academic left.

Palestine is just a little page of that war, where the left takes all the most antihuman positions possible, siding with actual terrorists even, explicitly, because they already feel so powerful they want to test the border of their power (like they did when they started mutilating children because of "gender identity"). I hope they are wrong and enough decent people stand up and tell them "this is enough" and recognize the deep reasons why the left sides with Hamas, which are above.

So Hamas and the Palestinians want to tear down Israel so they can establish a hyper-progressive civilization? Is that what you’re suggesting? Let us know when you come back down to earth.

No. Hamas are a horrible organisation. As is the Israeli government. If you could decapitate both while leaving both populations unharmed it would be fantastic.

I'd like to be able to say that Israelis deserve better than Bibi's gangsters but as the overwhelming majority of them seem to be in favour of more and more bloodletting, I can't. It's a nation of full on deplorables.

Post about topics and content, and NOT about each other, or there will be more timeouts

BOIDS, Trolly, Rafiki, Jalfrezi, DBF, and more. Enough please. Thank you ♥

Dunyain and Luciom, you're both dancing far too close to the white supremacy line, and I'd advise you both to proceed with caution. This point is not up for debate.

I think a lot of people from both sides want to see Bibi gone, but he’s in it until Hamas relents and they are willing to go until every Palestinian is dead and Hamas leadership is being safely tucked away by the Qataris afaik.

If the IDF had infinite resources they could take down Hamas with the least amount of collateral, but they don’t. In fact, there’s global pressure and efforts to impede their resources and ability to combat Hamas. The IDF are the only force in this conflict who are trying to minimize civilian casualties. There’s a limit to what the IDF can do without compromising their goals and the lives of their soldiers. If the global community wanted to help instead of impede the situation there would undoubtedly be less human suffering. This has probably been mentioned multiple times already.

I wouldn't say that. There's a significant Israeli left (though not as significant as it once was), and significant opposition to the more fanatical religious-right programme. Unfortunately, due to proportional representation, which invariably puts the lunatics in charge of the asylum -- producing a hung parliament in which fringe groups hold the balance of power -- this doesn't count for as much as it should.

by jalfrezi P

The IDF showed their whole strike plan where Hamas was inside ANOTHER UNWRA school. The school you've posted.

I don't know how to get Hamas to stop using UNWRA schools for war. But someone has to. And we already know they do this because even the UN investigations revealed as much.

One again I have to comment

Highly likely to be the UK PM in a few weeks

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/art...

In the current politics of the region, from a Western view, Israel is a stabilising force (up to a point, though Israel has been understandably provoked into problematic actions lately) and Iran is the destabilising force. There's a reason why even Saudi Arabia has become an informal ally of Israel against the strategic enemy Iran, while Egypt and Jordan remain formal (if presently somewhat annoyed) allies. Palestinian Sunni groups supping with the predatory Shia mullahs of Iran may have forgotten to bring the proverbially necessary long spoon.

It's not a normative should, it's a description of how things are