Israel/Palestine thread

47k civilians killed in the most quoted assessment, and that only includes direct verified deaths not all the indirect ones.

And a lot of the war was in rural areas not in dense urban settings.

Yea it was 15 years long. It was an entire county. We bombed multiple cities and towns. We treated the civilians like people because we wanted to win their hearts and minds.

Israel war vs terrorist elements in Gaza and the WB is at least 50 years long, and they didn't kill 50k civilians overall.

I feel like this is going to turn into a bunch of "but that war was bad too!" arguments. I don't really see how this is relevant.

Kosovo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestin...

Wrong. Please adjust your opinion based on new info

Total casualties for this period 144,963, including 66,789 fatalities.

1948-2023

Can you read you own sources? that's 66800 kills, not 66800 civilian kills lol

So given civilians are a fraction of that... that's a lot lot lower than 50k

BGP I agree with you, and I disagree with you.

I agree with you in the sense that military occupation in the true sense of the term cannot end without a day after plan. And that can take years in an insurgency situation. The talk is hopefully giving all the schooling, medical, food supply etc responsibility to a coalition of nations (with maybe a key nation like Saudi at the top), and Israel provides the security layer. That's until the day after becomes today. So when I read that back it's not lost on me how challenging that will be, specially since there's no Israeli political leadership in place today to execute it competently. That sounds like a pile of dung, and everyone familiar enough with these situations knows it.

But this is where I stop agreeing with you.

Israel isn't 11,000 miles from Gaza. It's 3 miles (to any people). You're comparing situations where super powers flew all these soldiers across oceans, with impossible goals, with limited mobility (like they're there or they're not there, there's nothing in between). Their security objectives were eventually very vague, with nothing in common with these people, and frankly eventually they just didn't have enough vested interest to see it through.

But this is not that. This is what would happen if Afghanistan had been Tijuana. And your goal is to make sure no more rockets are fired into San Diego from Tijuana. There's your most important goal right there, defined clear as day. You don't need to move men 11k miles when you're trying to handle that. You don't need to build huge military bases either. Your forces come from their homes, and in a few miles they're there. Because this isn't oceans away, this is basically right on your doorstep. So people can't use comps that truly don't apply here, because well, they don't. Stop the missiles. Stop the tunnels. The IDF will lose guys and they get that. But for that time I will bet you not many missiles drop on anyone around there while they figure this out. And that's the shift away from the Bibi model from before (isolate them behind a wall).

The other thing I disagree with is anyone being in a position to tell them it can't be done.

The iron dome couldnt be done until it was.
This Gaza war was supposed to kill thousands of IDF. It did not.
Rafah was impossible to do, it would take 4 months to evacuate over a million civilians. They did it in under 4 weeks.

So at some point eventually these generals and politicians from other countries may have to accept that maybe they don't know this situation as well as they think they do. And that is still admitting YEARS of insurgency that will suck. But it will suck for the IDF. And since its creation, that's their job. They are the shield, so that no women and children and elderly need be lynched again.

Btw for context, to understand Israel, someone asked the other day about a hypothetical situation where the IDF lost both entire squads of commandos to free the 4 hostages (who make it home). And the reply to that is instant an unanimous:

"May their memory be a blessing"

That's Israel. You understand when you put on the uniform what your duty is, and to whom. Israelis take that trade every time. Everyone in the IDF is there to safeguard their loved ones and the whole civilian country behind them.

it is very relevant, because there is a lot of talk of abnormal behaviour by Israel while actually they are behaving really well.

Kosovo war had an horrific treatment of civilians, so horrendous that it motivated NATO to intervene to fix it, if you mean western intervention in Kosovo that wasn't a war, it was a peacekeeping mission joining an existing war.

It wasn't like NATO had enemies to defeat with a ground invasion. NATO entered only after agreement with local leaders lol. It just bombed military targets before that.

I am once again begging people to understand that "whatabout WWII?" is not a compelling argument.

If war in urban settings always causes as much problems for civilians as it's happening in Gaza, if not a lot more usually, then no claim that Israel should stop the war because of civilian deaths, unless the claim is simply "war is never justified".

If you want to go with "war is never justified" go with it, but you won't because that's a minoritarian position and you know that.

So you want to claim falsehoods about Israel puportedly treating gazean civilians a lot worse than what normally happens in wars, to justify stopping this specific war, even if the casus belli for this specific war is one of the clearest in the history of wars.

But i am using war above because that's the narrative: i don't consider it a war because Gaza isn't a state.

Israel attacked with 100% full justification given 10 7. And it isn't behaving worse than normal belligerents, it is actually behaving a lot better than belligerents usually do. And it has to keep going until Hamas (et al) are no more.

Palestine doesn’t have a regular army and never has. They are all civilians

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Pretty similar. One side committing a genocide against the other. The world had to step in to protect civilians from a powerful govt

Sound familiar??

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Israel can and must do better, especially if they want to actually remove Hamas.

I agree the world should side with Israeli until not a single terrorist exists anymore in gaza, WB, lebanon.

But it's not happening so we have to at the very least allow Israel to try to achieve that, without spending efforts like you and many others do to make it harder for Israel to defend it's civilians.

ah the joke use of the word civilian you want to waste time on.

don't care at all tbh, if armed or in any form violent vs the soldiers they deserve to be killed.

So choose the word, "innocents" if you prefer, many more completly innocent people died in afghanistan in 20 years of war than in gaza+wb since 1948 because of Israeli actions.

Btw if they don't have a army and don't have a state it can't be war. You claim 10 7 was an act of war against a military target, but committed by civilians lol. Truly a joke to talk with you. Adieux

That sort of nonsense never bothers me

I try to give a pass to both sides saying and supporting some otherwise indefensible things. It's unreasonable to expect people behave perfectly when so fearful and angry for so long. We have to find a situation which allows the anger, fear and bitterness to recede into the past. It aint easy and it's going to take along time.

It's tough to kill a lot of innocent civilians in caves.

Can we just agree that Arabs and Jews are not compatible and will never like each other?

Cave fighting kinda ended after pakistan protected Osama.

After that it was villages, cities, hearts and minds. Supporting the northern alliance against the taliban.

Kabul and kandahar are still standing. the US didnt murder everyone there and we didnt flatten their cities.

You guys love to ignore the evidence right in your face. its hilarious tbh, but in a macabre way

Where are the bodies from this "genocide"? We keep hearing about "atrocities" and "massacres" but where are the bodies? I see body cam footage with Palestinians running around but they aren't being shot by Israelis.

During the War in Afghanistan, according to the Costs of War Project the war killed 176,000 people in Afghanistan:

46,319 civilians,

69,095 military and police and at least 52,893 opposition fighters. However, the death toll is possibly higher due to unaccounted deaths by "disease, loss of access to food, water, infrastructure, and/or other indirect consequences of the war."[1] According to the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, the conflict killed 212,191 people.[2] The Cost of War project estimated in 2015 that the number who have died through indirect causes related to the war may be as high as 360,000 additional people based on a ratio of indirect to direct deaths in contemporary conflicts.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_c...)

looks like once 110k Palestinians have been killed then you will be wrong. lets hope that doesnt happen.

Is the US living right next door to Afghanistan. Have the people of Afghanistan threatened to kill all Americans and wipe the US off the map? Is the US surrounded by countries that want to wipe if off the map?