The costs of trans visibility

This is why it’s counterproductive to assume someones moral levels and motivations from a short conversation in one thread. If you had accepted that the pro-trans crowd was having a conversation with you in good faith and not trying to “gain a moral high ground” or take part in “celebratory hyper acceptance “ and talked to people from a point of trying to reach a mutual understanding, we would have already reached an understanding of what innate is. It has been explained. The very definition of innate means it goes beyond a convicted belief. The reason Iinnate is used the way it is in the posted scientific studies is the same reason, as previously quoted, Issac Newton described his theory of gravity as innate. If you ask enough epistemological questions(why?why?why?why?) Issac Newton didn’t actually know where gravity comes from. But empirical evidence , observation, and mathematics allowed him to reach an understanding of gravity that went beyond previous knowledge. For example, although his theory was innate, it helped scientists discover the planet neptune even though no one had ever seen it before.

We don’t know everything about Trans people, but we do know based on our best understanding, it is measurable, observationally true, and a much better explanation for atypical gender than describing it as a “mental illness”

I don't know which of you is correct about being "on the autism spectrum", but you both knew what I meant and this is a silly thing to argue.

It’s been measured that the gender claims of transgender people go beyond a convicted belief? We both know that’s not true.

Your version of mutual understanding is me “educating” myself. Like you said before.

Fifty years ago, the group of girls known as tomboys would still identify as female. In our current culture, a significant segment of those, not only identify as male, but are socialized into forming a strong gender identity as male. A strong gender identity where they view the self through their gender identity.. which mismatches their body.

This is supposed to be progress for them?

This is a really semantic argument, but I think this is the best representation of the data on autism.

As an example, children born to parents working in Silicone Valley have a much higher chance of being diagnosed with autism, reportedly around 10x the mean. This is because when both parents are on the low end of the spectrum, in other words relatively high but too low for a formal diagnosis, the child is more likely to inherit autistic genes from each parent.

Are Geeky Couples More Likely to Have Ki...

This is more likely to be a cause rather than a symptom. Children who are obese or overweight are more likely to experience precocious puberty. Steroid hormones (estrogen, testosterone) are synthesised from cholesterol, so more fat means more fuel for potential steroid hormones synthesis. This is the primary hypothesis as to why children today start puberty much earlier than 100 years ago - they have diets richer in fat and sugar.

Onset of puberty in girls has fallen by ...

Therefore being obese/overweight at 7-8 years old is highly likely to be the better predictor of the conditions you mention, rather than precocious puberty.

I agree that the best option would be to allow the patient, their family and treating doctors to weigh the risk and benefits when faced with such choices. However, I believe it would have to be a fairly extreme example for most doctors to recommend hormone blockers, because anyone who has a fundamental understanding of biology knows the risks of messing with the endocrine system - especially during adolescence.

You can have issues that can be improved by psychological treatment that are not mental illness. Grieving, for instance. Grieving is a normal process that mentally healthy people go through that can be improved with talking therapy.

Delayed onset muscle soreness is not an illness, but taking medicine can reduce the soreness.

The "does someone freak out on the internet" test is highly specific and sensitive for it.

I’m sorry the education system failed you too.

This is an example of why I don't really like the term "mental illness". I prefer something like "a negative mental state", which certainly would include grieving.
(Muscle soreness is a negative physical state.)

What makes someone trans is that their brain doesn't match their body, causing them to have a negative mental state. The solution could be changing either their brain or their body. It seems far less drastic (and more easily reversible) to first try to change their brain to match their body, then, in that doesn't work, consider changing their body to match their brain. I don't think it's any more judgmental or transphobic to say that their brain that could be 'fixed' through psychiatric treatment than to say their body could be 'fixed' by other medical treatment. This is not the same as saying they are insane or out of touch with reality. I certainly don't believe I have ever been insane or out of touch with reality, but psychiatric treatment has certainly been beneficial to me.

Adding to this, for a transgender identifying person, trying to influence them to identify with the other gender is not the solution. The solution is to get them to practice affirming the self without using gender at all.

Once the relationship with the self is established, then it’s about finding meaning outside the domain of gender. It doesn’t take advanced degrees or appointments with psychiatrists to do this.

The term 15 years ago was Gender Identity Disorder, but it did morph 10 years ago basically into Gender Dysphoria. The point I've been making is that not every transgender person has either. Being trans in itself does not necessarily lead to significant dysphoria, distress, nor impairment in one's functioning. Plenty of trans people are out there living their lives without needing any mental health help.

Yes, so if someone is depressed or suicidal, we address and treat that regardless of the cause. But the psychiatric part of that treatment isn't to make the patient no longer Korean, or no longer have cancer, or no longer trans. You can be Korean, have cancer, and be trans (even all 3 at once!) without being depressed or suicidal.

Plenty of schizophrenics doing the same (John Nash, Elyn Saks). Doesn’t meant they’re not schizophrenic.

See, the problem you and the pro-trans herd have is that you cannot even define what a man is or what a woman is. Once you can do that then you can explore whether or not those things are interchangeable. From a scientific or biological perspective, the answer is clear.

Nash was hospitalized numerous times for extended periods. His schizophrenia clearly reached a level that was significantly impairing to his functioning. That the treatment worked and he was able to be functional again doesn't erase his past.

This is in contrast to transgender people who can have no mental health issues. They can live normal lives without needing therapy to function or a hospitalization to stay safe.

it was a bad example for sure but i think the general point he was making still stands

We wouldn't categorize something as a mental illness if it doesn't cause you any sort of problems. Schizophrenia does cause problems is therefore categorized as mental illness. Being Korean is not in and of itself a problem and so isn't a mental illness. Being transgender also doesn't in and of itself cause problems in one's ability to function in society and so is not categorized as a mental illness.

For the most pet Nash consented to treatment only when it was forced upon him. For the most part he did not take medications. Yet, he earned a No wel prize. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t mentally ill.

Elyn Saks is considered a genius and has accomplished more than most people could dream in their lives. Doesn’t mean she doesn’t suffer from a mental illness. She does.

Really? So trans people do not kill themselves at a much higher rate than others? They have no problems accessing care in many states? They don’t have a higher incidence of mental disorders? I’d say being delusional, er, I mean trans, does cause a host of problems.

I don't think these are equivalent. Someone being Korean or having cancer is something that can be objectively determined by an observer. Someone being trans is completely subjective (in their mind).

Do you believe that anyone has ever gone through getting puberty blockers, hormonal treatments, or gender reassignment surgery without feeling seriously unhappy about their lives? I believe they would not voluntarily go through these things without having a "negative mental state".

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So it may be possible to change by working with the brain. Also, someone may believe they are trans but be mistaken, or only temporarily correct.

So? The same things could be said of depression or many other psychological disorders. We shouldn’t treat patients having depression because they *might* spontaneously change or just “be mistaken?”

No, my point is that we should treat trans people, just like we treat depression, with psychological means. If someone tells a doctor they are depressed because they have legs, the first thing tried should not be to cut his legs off.

Thing is, trans people are mistaken and we can prove it scientifically.