Israel/Palestine thread

You don't think the fact that they have other land and sea exits matters at all?

I guess I'm in prison right now then, as I don't have a passport so I would be stopped at the border to Mexico or Canada.

There is a difference between shooting people who are trying to get out and shooting people are trying to get in.

You might be surprised at what might not happen to you if you try to enter Canada. As for the US/Mexican border... I don't think this comparison is going to play out the way you want.

Thanks for the info, although none of these actually have anything to do with the post of mine you replied to.

I am interested in more information about the border between Gaza and Egypt though. I actually have done some googling to educate myself, and what I have read said that Egypt has refused to let in refugees from Gaza. Partially on principle because they think if most of the Palestinians leave Gaza, they won't have the leverage to try to demand a Palestinian state at some time in the future. Which I guess may make sense as game theory, but at the cost of actually saving the lives of "brothers" they pretend to care about.

https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-j...

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/12/121838876...

The two articles you linked which were about people leaving Gaza only mention the border crossings with Israel.
Until the last few months, was Israel actually stopping people from travelling directly to Egypt, or like I have read, was it Egypt refusing them?

Of course you know I was referring to East Germany, which you had brought up. They shot people who were trying to leave their country. Israel is not shooting people trying to leave Israel, AFAIK (see above question to Victor).

Interesting video, though the people entering Canada are being arrested, which is not really what I'm looking for. I did actually look into legally moving to Canada 15 years ago or so, and I did not qualify.- Too bad I wasn't a stripper, because then I would have qualified.

by international law (lol), Israeli is the occupying force and it is their duty to allow freedom of movement. Egypt is not occupying Gaza.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/03/un...

my links speak directly to this assertion from yourself

firstly, I dont think the facts show that Israel would ever let Gaza be successful or in control.

secondly, Gaza is under occupation. they are allowed by law, and indeed obligated morally to fight the occupation. the rockets are legal and not terroristic.

Israel is literally bombing people who aren't in designated safe zones (and occasionally bombing people in those zones). I guess it's more like Hunger Games than a conventional prison?

occasionally?

by Victor k

by international law (lol), Israeli is the occupying force and it is their duty to allow freedom of movement. Egypt is not occupying Gaza.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/03/un...

my links speak directly to this assertion from yourself

firstly, I dont think the facts show that Israel would ever let Gaza be successful or in control.

secondly, Gaza is under occupation

My "assertion" was speculation about how things might have been different in the last 20 years. I know you have a different opinion, but no news article is going to prove either of us right.

I will admit I know very little about international law, but if it says that sending bombs via rockets across a border to kill civilian populations is legal, it's certainly not worth knowing about.

Again nothing you posted actually answered my question about Egypt. I see you believe my question is unimportant, but it is important to me. If Israel really was stopping the residents of Gaza from going to Egypt, I would consider that very bad. It just doesn't appear that they have been doing that.

Sorry, I haven't read or watched Hunger Games, so I don't know if the situation is like that. I do know it's not much like the situation used to be in East Germany.

the facts are that Israel did not allow Gazans freedom or control. nor have they ever offered it and showed any indication that would support your opinion. in fact they have repeatedly acted otherwise and explicitly stated otherwise.

And the Palestinians have never shown any indication that they would stop trying to kill every Israeli they can, no matter what they are offered. They have repeatedly shown this (even killing them in other countries at international events!), and have stated this to be true.

The residents of Gaza do not want to flee their homes to live in refugee camps in Egypt, I can't emphasize this enough.

You really think most of them would not like to go to Egypt right now? My understanding is that the majority of people have already left their homes. And who says they would have to live in refugee camps? Egypt is a real country, with actual cities people can live in.

nope. repeatedly they have attempted to negotiate with Israel. repeatedly they have said they would stop the attacks if Israel stopped attacking Palestinians.

https://archive.is/PC6wv

this is essentially default recognition of Israel.

You can't possibly be this dense. No, they do not want to leave Palestine. Israel is bombing the **** out of them to force them out and into refugee camps that have been operating since the 40s, a thing the rest of the world calls "ethnic cleansing." But go on about how bloodthirsty and ruthless the Palestineans are.

Well, I haven't heard them say that. If that is true, why did they recently do the attack which Israel rightfully got so upset about?

The article you linked about 2006 doesn't explicitly say they would recognize Israel or stop bombing them, but I agree it looks like that could have been a good start.
However, it says they covertly sent the message to the Bush administration, in hopes of ending the US boycott. This already makes the offer very suspicious, and they didn't make the offer to the actual people who could have possibly accepted it, the Israeli government.

I don't like what Israel is currently doing in Gaza, and I think Netanyahu is an extremist leader, the likes of whom I would never vote into office. But I don't blame the general population of Israel for wanting to try to end the threat from Hamas, even if it isn't being done in the right way. But I think Hamas, who was also voted into office, is worse, and I have no particular sympathy for the Palestinian cause after seeing what they have done and who they have supported for the last 50 years. It is sad that so many Palestinian civilians have recently been killed, but it's clear that neither the Palestinian leadership nor the leaders of the other countries in the region care about them any more than the government of Israel does.

Trolly, the population of Gaza has doubled in 30 years. The genocide has gone very poorly by all metrics if you believe there is one. There was no plan to force anyone to leave Gaza in those 30 years either. On October 6th do you think there was a plan to force anyone to leave Gaza?

Gaza got bombed because of the biggest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust. They're going after the guys who did it, Inglorious Bastards style. I think we can agree the hammer they used was too big in some spots. If I had to guess they were executing a 50 year plan to create a response so big nobody would try that again on them (and Sinwar's promises to haven't helped matters).

But Gaza would be the same old same old today without Oct 7th.

Hmm, well if my city was currently getting bombed the **** out of it, and there was a spot 15 miles away that wasn't being bombed, I would certainly want to leave for there, even if it was going to be in a refugee camp. My understanding is most of them are in camps right now. I don't believe they are dense enough not to prefer that as well, but if they really do not, just because their grandfathers lived in a particular spot, I would have even less respect and sympathy for them than the little I already have.

its not explicit. its de facto. its an opinion, altho that Israeli newspaper surmised it as well.

they have made many offers. I dont have time to find them all right now. you can check history section of the Hamas wikipedia for others broadly speaking.

I suspect they sent it to the Bush admin bc they wanted the Americans to exert influence on Israel to try to start talks because they did not trust the Israels to negotiate in good faith or with any seriousness.

again, Hamas has offered to end hostilities many times. they have offered to return all the hostages. it is Israel that takes an unreasonable position and engages in mass murder and oppression.

One of the principle issues since the second Intifada is Hamas has never offered to sit at the table and sue for peace on the matter of Israel and Gaza. There was never a counter offer on Camp David. There was never a negotiation once Israel left Gaza in 2005. The immediate aftermath of the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was 140 suicide bombs in 3 years.

And this was during a Left-ruling period in Israel where frankly peace was right there if the Palestinians wanted it. The Left's mission was 2 state. They worked over a decade to prepare the groundwork for it. And as soon as Israel left Gaza, the second Intifada hit. Imagine being the Israel voters, you're told for a decade that land for peace is the way out. "The solution is so close, just trust us". Land for peace begins, and 140 suicide bombs go off killing kids in discos and moms in supermarkets.

Again I've told you guys, the only reason any can find for the 140 bombs was Ariel Sharon visiting, the Temple Mount! What's the encore?

There's NEVER been a serious counterparty to peace here. Anyone telling you as much is lying. run through the chronology after 2005, you'll see it's just give an inch, take an arm (with a suicide bomb). And then when a wall is built to stop the suicide bombs people say "OPEN AIR PRISON".

Guys, history shows the sequence of events that sunk the left and lead to the wall. It's not hard to learn up on.

Populations don’t have to decline in order for a genocide to have occurred. Are you aware of that?