Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I believe it was changed to 15 miles several years ago
I don't understand it enough. I know Israel is trying to prevent terrost shipments but that does sound too restrictive
Yes some Israeli policies towards Palestinian people are bad.
They just aren't the hyperbolic words many of you like to use
It's been 6 nautical miles in the North and 15 in the South lately but that's not the whole story as Israeli attacks on fishing boats and the restrictions on fuel and importing engines and parts have also hurt the fishing industry which used to be a major part of the economy for Gaza.
Israel agreed to 20 miles in Oslo.
MSM supporting Israel is a not a fact, it's an opinion. The Intercept has been very pro-Palestine, I would take anything they release with a grain of salt. Ultimately it doesn't matter that much though because looking at MSM bias is just one factor in the information war, and it's not a good indicator of who is winning it. Things like the fact that for every 36 pro-Palestine Tik Tok video there's 1 Israeli one is a better indicator of which side has garnered more sympathy imo:
Here's an excellent article on the information war in Palestine:
https://time.com/6549544/israel-and-hama...
Among social media channels, TikTok in particular has been dominated by pro-Palestinian content. For every pro-Israel post on TikTok, there have been 36 pro-Palestinian posts, according to an analysis of hashtags shared with TIME by statistician Anthony Goldbloom, a former chief executive of Kaggle, a data science company now part of Google. Videos posted by young Israeli soldiers seeming to mock Palestinians, smashing childrens’ certificates in Gazan schools or filming themselves throwing a stun grenade into a mosque have been widely amplified to depict the IDF as callous. (The soldier involved in the latter incident was suspended after the video went viral).
You could look ITT for a good example of how much pro-Palestine vs pro-Israel videos, articles etc have been posted. I think it highly favors Palestine.
While most Americans still sympathize with Israel, the number who disapprove of its military actions in Gaza has increased, according to recent polls. Protests in solidarity with Palestinians are not slowing down, and more and more Democratic lawmakers have voiced their concerns about the large amounts of funding Congress has approved for Israel with few strings attached.
Amid cratering international support for Israel’s war, there is little debate over which side is winning the battle for hearts and minds. The number of Americans who want the U.S. to take Israel’s side has dropped from 43% in October to 37% in November, according to a survey conducted by the University of Maryland and Ipsos. After tens of thousands of protestors took to the streets in European capitals, some of the continent’s most prominent leaders dialed back their full-fledged embrace of the Israeli campaign, with French President Emmanuel Macron calling on Israel to halt the hostilities. The U.S. remains the only U.N. Security Council member to vote against a call for an immediate ceasefire. And now even the Biden administration, Israel’s staunchest ally and biggest supplier of military aid, is pushing the country to scale back its offensive in a matter of weeks.
Here's an Israeli talking about how they're faring in the information war, even if MSM is on their side:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/soc...
"When it comes to views, likes and engagement and even the amount of pieces of content put out there, we are largely outnumbered," the 25-year-old Cohen said, referring to pro-Israel and pro-Jewish content compared to pro-Palestinian social media content.
You can also look at things like UAE immediately condemning the Hamas terrorist attack, and then absolute silence once Israel began their campaign. Overall international support is down for Israel, countries are withdrawing support, and even USA is clearly not pleased with how they're conducting things. The protests for Israel are dwarfed by those for Palestine. Netanyahu's approval rating is continually dropping and always at an all time low. Biden is losing popularity due to backing Israel. These all point to Israel losing the information war, whether or not MSM is on their side, a claim which I don't really believe but it's beside the point anyways.
As far the hospital bombing, he does not "straight up lie that the damage was from a Palestinian rocket." He says that it was most likely a Hamas rocket that malfunctioned, which seems to be the leading theory. You can read about it here under "Analyses":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Ar...
Spoiler
On 20 October 2023, the Associated Press (AP) reported that it concluded from analyzing "more than a dozen videos from the moments before, during and after the hospital explosion, as well as satellite imagery and photos" that "the rocket that broke up in the air was fired from within Palestinian territory, and that the hospital explosion was most likely caused when part of that rocket crashed to the ground", while acknowledging the unavailability of definitive proof.
Justin Bronk at Royal United Services Institute said that, while not conclusive, "a rocket failure causing an explosion and fuel fire" was a more likely explanation than an Israeli airstrike.
The Guardian quoted Marc Garlasco as saying that the crater at the blast site required kinetic energy inconsistent with a Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) aerial bomb, and was also inconsistent with an airstrike, concluding that it was "more likely to be a weapon that failed and released its payload over a wide area.
NR Jenzen-Jones, a director at Armament Research Services, also told the BBC that the crater observed at the hospital was significantly smaller than what would typically result from a 155 mm artillery projectile.
Human Rights Watch determined that the sound audible in the video recorded by a bystander and was consistent with a motor-propelled munition, such as a rocket or missile, and inconsistent with an artillery shell.
Der Spiegel reported that the opinion of Fabian Hoffman, a weapons researcher at the University of Oslo, is that the most likely explanation regarding the cause of the explosion is that a rocket fell apart in several phases and hit the hospital.
And there's a lot more. The things said in this video are very consistent with the facts. It's a great video and worth the watch.
Browser: He doesn't say that losing the info war was caused by this one event. He says "a big reason for that was the NYT". That doesn't even refer to this story, it refers to the media bias displayed by the NYT. They have been overwhelming pro Palestine imo. He then delves into 1 story by them and how that one story had a major impact.
I don't think his suggestion is to have 1 military guy and everything gets run past him. He says that the story should have been reported with the 4 most plausible scenarios laid out, and to not attempt to determine the cause based on incomplete information. His overall recommendation to encourage that type of reporting is to have more vets reporting on war in order to more accurately cover war stories. I don't see a flaw with that logic. It's very easy to see that many MSM articles regarding war are written by people who know very little about it.
As far as Israel not losing the information war because of targeted information warfare: as the Time article states, Israel has one ally supporting them at this moment and they are not keeping that one ally happy. They are losing the information war.
CNN runs all of their coverage through the IDF censor. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-...
heres an analysis of headlines and humanizing of the subject. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/news...
heres a very small list of some of the reporters and speakers silenced or retaliated against
I just read the first link you posted and that article specifically states that they do not run all their coverage through the IDF censor. The article lays out how the process works, primarily self censorship, driven by fears of violating the rules laid down by the IDF censorship department. So the IDF definitely affects coverage, but that is a very different thing than claiming all CNN coverage is run through the censor. There have been times, like in WW2 where every story was actually run through a military censor, because the military control the means to get the stories transmitted back to the US. But that is not what is ocurring now, so your comment exaggerates what is actually in place.
Ofc it's an opinion.
Intercept is not mainstream and doesn't have much reach as compared to CNN Wapo NYT Fox.
If you have a problem with those 2 intercept articles then maybe you could explain them. The facts don't really seem in dispute.
Israel is def losing when it comes to non mainstream sources. Imo that is bc the truth is impossible to fully hide in those mediums. But I just think the mainstream dwarfs those.
Having MSM showing your argument more is an asset in the battle. Actual opinions regarding the conflict are how you determine who is winning. I would say that on Oct 8 Israel was winning the battle. Shortly after they began their campaign and footage was coming out they were very much losing the battle.
Browser: He doesn't say that losing the info war was caused by this one event. He says "a big reason for that was the NYT". That doesn't even refer to this story, it refers to the media bias displayed by the NYT. They have been overwhelming pro Palestine imo. He then delves into 1 story by them. I don't think his suggestion is to have 1 military guy and everything gets run past him. He says that the story should have been reported with the
Actual, he says exactly that in the first minute of the video:
"The war has been raging for about 3 months now and Israel effectively lost the information war 10 days in".
What happened 10 days in? The hospital explosion. He directly says that the info war was lost by Israel due to the coverage by the NYT i didnt hear him say anything about the NYT bias being a part of the problem. Rather he tried to make the case that the reporters should have had the knowledge of the intel model used for analyzing possibilities. And that more vets on staff would have prevented that initial article from going out. For the reasons I discussed above, I dont believe thats the case.
Ofc it's an opinion.
Intercept is not mainstream and doesn't have much reach as compared to CNN Wapo NYT Fox.
If you have a problem with those 2 intercept articles then maybe you could explain them. The facts don't really seem in dispute.
Israel is def losing when it comes to non mainstream sources. Imo that is bc the truth is impossible to fully hide in those mediums. But I just think the mainstream dwarfs those.
First, I said so far I just read the first article, the one you said showed that CNN ran all its coverage through the censor. But the very article you link to states that's not true. So you now say its just your opinion (though you state it as a fact) yet the article you link to support your opinion in fact rebuts that opinion.
So I never said anything about having a problem with the article. My issue was with you writing a statement that falsely describes what the link you posted actually says. Given that people rarely actually read the links, many may take your statement as true and assume the link you provided backs up your statement. But it doesnt. That's what in the trade is called disinformation.
That is not how I heard it. It was clearly a major event, but his wording does not suggest it was the sole event as you are suggesting.
It's also exactly what you'd say if you weren't though. They feel that strongly about their case.
One thing people don't entirely understand is how tough you have to be to exist down there.
I understand this perfectly; I remember the Iraq War years and the kinds of atrocities people will support when they're scared.
MSM supporting Israel is a not a fact, it's an opinion. The Intercept has been very pro-Palestine, I would take anything they release with a grain of salt. Ultimately it doesn't matter that much though because looking at MSM bias is just one factor in the information war, and it's not a good indicator of who is winning it. Things like the fact that for every 36 pro-Palestine Tik Tok video there's 1 Israeli one is a better indicator of which
But you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth here, saying that lopsided MSM coverage of Israel doesn't mean anything but lopsided TikTok support proves something about the "information war."
How is that contradictory? Tiktok content is posted by the users.
Is NYT really that pro Palestinian when they released that rape article? Seems to be some kind of balance there.
That is not how I heard it. It was clearly a major event, but his wording does not suggest it was the sole event as you are suggesting.
How else can you hear "Israel effectively lost the information war 10 days into the fight"? If they lost it by day 10, then any events after that are outside the scope of his statement. Not 9 days in, or 8 days in, or 20 days in. but they lost it 10 days in, the day of the hospital blast.
First, I said so far I just read the first article, the one you said showed that CNN ran all its coverage through the censor. But the very article you link to states that's not true. So you now say its just your opinion (though you state it as a fact) yet the article you link to support your opinion in fact rebuts that opinion.
i dont really have a dog in this fight.. but this part isn't really true that the article says it's not true. the cnn spokesperson said “The policy of running stories about Israel or the Palestinians past the Jerusalem bureau has been in place for years,” and then said but it has no effect. if anything that proves they DO run it through a censor they are just arguing they would publish the pro-Israel slant anyway.
a cnn staffer said, "Every single Israel-Palestine-related line for reporting must seek approval from the [Jerusalem] bureau"
First, I said so far I just read the first article, the one you said showed that CNN ran all its coverage through the censor. But the very article you link to states that's not true. So you now say its just your opinion (though you state it as a fact) yet the article you link to support your opinion in fact rebuts that opinion.
So I never said anything about having a problem with the article. My issue was with you writing a statement that f
My post was directed at BGP and namely this part
MSM supporting Israel is a not a fact, it's an opinion
If I say Germany effectively lost ww2 after the Normandy landing that does not discount stalingrad and kursk.
If Israel was executing a campaign that only killed hamas soldiers and was not resulting in tons of collateral damage, dead civilians and a flood of footage of their destroying Gaza then the destruction of the hospital would have been viewed far differently and they potentially could have salvaged their position.
i dont really have a dog in this fight.. but this part isn't really true that the article says it's not true. the cnn spokesperson said “The policy of running stories about Israel or the Palestinians past the Jerusalem bureau has been in place for years,” and then said but it has no effect. if anything that proves they DO run it through a censor they are just arguing they would publish the pro-Israel slant anyway.
a cnn staffer said,
The Jerusalem Bureau they are referring to is the CNN bureau in Jerusalem, not the IDF Censors. Its just like CNNhas bureaus in London, New York, and many countries around the world. Those are two very different things.
Popping in to remind the thread that it is proven that the Palestinians bombed the **** out of their own hospital, and that Victor is lying
Replace "MSM" with "TikTok" and "Israel" with "Palestine" and see if you agree with the original argument.
That mainstream legacy outlets like NYT and WaPo have had a pro-Israel outlook is so widely documented it's barely worth arguing over --you can call it an "opinion" rather than a "fact" but I'm not sure what difference that rhetorical point makes.
Certainly, TikTok is heavily slanted toward a pro-Palestinian angle. It's worth considering that this is an outlet consumed by people who generally aren't in positions of much power.
In general, deciding which side is winning the "information war" is going to depend on what bubble you happen to be in.
Popping in to remind the thread that it is proven that the Palestinians bombed the **** out of their own hospital, and that Victor is lying
Actually, while that is the conclusion of the US intel community, several of the independent investigations published conclusions that said while it was most likely a hamas rocket, the evidence does not conclusively show that. So to simply say that it is proven and someone is lying is inaccurate.
also, focus on that one single rocket is media bias in itself. Israel has bombed and attacked hospitals tons of times. they have shut down almost all of the hospitals in Gaza.
so its like, if this one time it was actually a Hamas mistake, it pales in comparison to all the other times Israel destroyed a hospital.
also, focus on that one single rocket is media bias in itself. Israel has bombed and attacked hospitals tons of times. they have shut down almost all of the hospitals in Gaza.
so its like, if this one time it was actually a Hamas mistake, it pales in comparison to all the other times Israel destroyed a hospital.
Grunching a bit, but if you're taking about what I think you are, that's what I was saying to the thread at the time and I think everyone else (as in you too) just wanted to talk about that one bomb/missile.
