Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Replace "MSM" with "TikTok" and "Israel" with "Palestine" and see if you agree with the original argument.
Do you mean like this? "saying that lopsided TikTok coverage of Palestine doesn't mean anything but lopsided MSM support proves something about the "information war." If so I'm not following. The difference should be evident in the words you chose for this sentence: MSM coverage and TikTok support. In general, MSM provides coverage, and TikTok shows support. They are not the same thing. MSM can be providing coverage on an issue, but if TikTok supports the opposite side then that is indicative of which side is winning the information war regardless of the MSM coverage, especially as far as TikTok users are concerned.
MSM coverage leaning one way is evidence of a bias in media. TikTok support leaning one way is evidence of the population's sentiments, especially among the younger generation.
This is like saying that one side has an allstar player on the team, but the other side is winning by 3 goals.
That mainstream legacy outlets like NYT and WaPo have had a pro-Israel outlook is so widely documented it's barely worth arguing over --you can call it an "opinion" rather than a "fact" but I'm not sure what difference that rhetorical point makes.
I was more replying to Victor claiming that the guy was off on the facts when I referred to it as an opinion. It was poorly stated by me. The guy stated two things as fact: support for Israel was on a significant downward trend by day 10 (they had lost the information war) and a Hamas rocket was the most likely cause of the hospital explosion. He's correct with both these facts.
NYT and WaPo have had a pro-Israel outlook when? I agree before this conflict they have, I do not agree that they have since it began.
Certainly, TikTok is heavily slanted toward a pro-Palestinian angle. It's worth considering that this is an outlet consumed by people who generally aren't in positions of much power.
In general, deciding which side is winning the "information war" is going to depend on what bubble you happen to be in.
The point is that TikTok is indicative of a population, namely a younger generation. MSM is not. When pro-Palestine videos get uploaded by the users at a rate of 36 to 1 it shows a trend of support for young users for Palestine. Sure enough in the 18-29 group almost twice as many show support for Palestine over Israel, and that's from a poll in December, I bet the disparity has grown. (Also that is from USA where it's probably the highest or at least among the highest pro-Israel sentiment.)
If MSM is showing news with one slant, it does not necessarily mean that their viewers are buying it. We've seen this very recently with Fox showing Russian-leaning pieces, but their own polls showing growing support for Ukraine.
Grunching a bit, but if you're taking about what I think you are, that's what I was saying to the thread at the time and I think everyone else (as in you too) just wanted to talk about that one bomb/missile.
I am not telling people not to discuss it. I am just saying that its being used to change the narrative.
also, ofc Israel did that **** lol.
Grunching a bit, but if you're taking about what I think you are, that's what I was saying to the thread at the time and I think everyone else (as in you too) just wanted to talk about that one bomb/missile.
it was the only thing he wanted to talk about for a short time, then when it turned out to be a palestinian rocket gone wrong (one of the many hundreds of palesinian rockets which have landed on palestinian heads in the past couple decades) he decided that it no longer mattered who fired the rocket
it was the only thing he wanted to talk about for a short time, then when it turned out to be a palestinian rocket gone wrong (one of the many hundreds of palesinian rockets which have landed on palestinian heads in the past couple decades) he decided that it no longer mattered who fired the rocket
it doesnt matter much overall. it wont make Israel any less criminal.
but it was very interesting how the disinformation came out (OSINT guys and doctored videos and doctored phone calls) and how the mainstream media ate it up only for them to need to walk it back once again.
it doesnt matter much overall. it wont make Israel any less criminal.
but it was very interesting how the disinformation came out (OSINT guys and doctored videos and doctored phone calls) and how the mainstream media ate it up only for them to need to walk it back once again.
Do you have a link to the story about doctored videos and calls? Id like to read it
Thanks
The point is that TikTok is indicative of a population, namely a younger generation. MSM is not. When pro-Palestine videos get uploaded by the users at a rate of 36 to 1 it shows a trend of support for young users for Palestine. Sure enough in the 18-29 group almost twice as many show support for Palestine over Israel, and that's from a poll in December, I bet the disparity has grown. (Also that is from USA where it's probably the highest
I think you might be discounting how much China is influencing the algorithm as a form of electronic warfare, and how much they are actually creating the support. I think it is fair to say China definitely feels that the younger generation supporting the Palestinian Jihad to conquer Israel weakens us as a nation, and benefits them in a zero sum manner. I am not sure this is actually true, but it seems to be what the CCP thinks is true. And it is hard to parse just how "organic" this viewpoint really is among young Americans.
it was the only thing he wanted to talk about for a short time, then when it turned out to be a palestinian rocket gone wrong (one of the many hundreds of palesinian rockets which have landed on palestinian heads in the past couple decades) he decided that it no longer mattered who fired the rocket
IIRC the Washington Post analysis strongly suggested it was Israeli munitions, so it's not like your position is sure enough to get contemptuous of V.
Meanwhile, while we are debating whether the Palestinians are actually being genocided, as their population is actually increasing astronomically in Israel, the West Band and Gaza (which is the opposite of most definitions of genocide); Christian and Jews have endured unquestionable targeted genocides in the Middle East, by any definition, but the UN, greater Muslim world, and progressive left couldn't care less.
So excuse me if I am not going to hold much weight in the collective sentiments of such a corrupt, politically compromised entity as the UN.
(old map of Armenian genocide, which is actually still ongoing)
(Jewish genocide in Middle East)
Actually, while that is the conclusion of the US intel community, several of the independent investigations published conclusions that said while it was most likely a hamas rocket, the evidence does not conclusively show that. So to simply say that it is proven and someone is lying is inaccurate.
you are correct that every reputable investigation, of which there were dozens, concluded that the evidence on the ground suggested that it was a palestinian rocket
add to that the fact that hamas has accidentally dropped hundreds of rockets on the heads of palestinians over the years, and the only reasonable conclusion is the one reached by everyone other than hamas, the palestinian islamic jihad, and victor
you are misunderstanding victor's position, by the way. he does not say that there is insufficient evidence to attribute blame to one side or the other. he says there is sufficient evidence and that israel did it. liar.
I believe it was changed to 15 miles several years ago
I don't understand it enough. I know Israel is trying to prevent terrost shipments but that does sound too restrictive
Yes some Israeli policies towards Palestinian people are bad.
They just aren't the hyperbolic words many of you like to use
You don’t understand it or you refuse to understand it ? They are eliminating the Palestinians in all way. They starve them out, cut off water, cut off electricity , check points, killing of civilians, 1000 detained with a 99.6% conviction rate. The list goes in.
Most of the rest of the world actually is anti-semitic. Do you know anything about the history of how jews have been treated, anywhere they have settled?
Agreed
Under the silly UN definition, any conflict is genocide.
One person kills another because that person is part of the group of people he hates - genocide!
So you think Google has a better understand of the word genocide than the UN and The Hague
So you choose the Google one. Did you look at any others?
Do you have a link to the story about doctored videos and calls? Id like to read it
Thanks
Israel said they intercepted a phone call between 2 Hamas members who said that it was a PIJ missile. You can look that up. Immediately Palestinians and other Arabs questioned the syntax and dialect and accents of the supposed Gazans. you can look that up too.
to your question about the doctoring, UK Channel 4 news did an analysis on the audio and found it to inconsistent. you can watch their analysis and conclusion here.
as for the video, I may look later but it is hard to find. from what I remember Israel released security videos that were off by like 20 or 40 seconds or something to make it seem like it was Hamas rocket. it was a bunch of videos supposedly synced but it was misleading or an error (lol).
I probably posted about it in this thread but its eluding my search. in a few weeks it will fall under the 3 months and older section. (I post way too much here)
this is the best I can do at the moment
also we have some mainstream sources but those just speak to the videos in general and not to my memory of videos being circulated that ended were synced with incorrect timing.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/middleeas...
or I just misremember. but I am pretty sure there were synced videos used by the IDF that were found to be off with timing.
Israel said they intercepted a phone call between 2 Hamas members who said that it was a PIJ missile. You can look that up. Immediately Palestinians and other Arabs questioned the syntax and dialect and accents of the supposed Gazans. you can look that up too.
to your question about the doctoring, UK Channel 4 news did an analysis on the audio and found it to inconsistent. you can watch their analysis and conclusion here.
as for the vide
Thanks. Actually it turns out the wiki article I linked to had info on that also but I skimmed over it as I was focusing on a different aspect of the operation
It literally doesn’t matter cause Israel bombed 20 other hospitals after that.
you are correct that every reputable investigation, of which there were dozens, concluded that the evidence on the ground suggested that it was a palestinian rocket
add to that the fact that hamas has accidentally dropped hundreds of rockets on the heads of palestinians over the years, and the only reasonable conclusion is the one reached by everyone other than hamas, the palestinian islamic jihad, and victor
Well if it wasn't for the blockade they could buy proper rockets to get to their targets.
Thanks Israel
you are correct that every reputable investigation, of which there were dozens, concluded that the evidence on the ground suggested that it was a palestinian rocket
add to that the fact that hamas has accidentally dropped hundreds of rockets on the heads of palestinians over the years, and the only reasonable conclusion is the one reached by everyone other than hamas, the palestinian islamic jihad, and victor
I'd like to see all these reputable investigations. Bc all of the mainstream sources say inconclusive.
100s of rockets eh? How many tickets do you think Israel has dropped on hospitals in the last 20 years?
I think you might be discounting how much China is influencing the algorithm as a form of electronic warfare, and how much they are actually creating the support. I think it is fair to say China definitely feels that the younger generation supporting the Palestinian Jihad to conquer Israel weakens us as a nation, and benefits them in a zero sum manner. I am not sure this is actually true, but it seems to be what the CCP thinks is true. A
My understanding is that the algorithm is a tool for who sees the messages, not whether or not the messages are out there. The Time article refers to the the massive amplification efforts by Iran, China and Russia. Once again, this seems like a tool, like getting MSM to amplify your side. A ratio of 36 to 1 in favor of one side would be more of a score card for how those amplification efforts are succeeding.
And while bots would also be posting and influencing that 36 number, I don't think it's enough to account for all of the discrepancy there.
TikTok is a Chinese propaganda / intelligence gathering tool. It could possible be the downfall of American society and I am so serious.
How many hospitals could there have been in Gaza?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-pa....
The World Health Organization reports that only 13 out of Gaza’s 36 hospitals are still partially functional: nine in the south and four in the north. The two major hospitals in southern Gaza are operating at three times their bed capacity and are running out of basic supplies and fuel.
