Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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As Clausewitz famously said in his book On War, "War is politics by other means". He stresses that the objective of war is always a political objective. War is just the means to that objective. That's why achieving the military objective doesn't mean you actually achieve the political objective of the war.
US military doctrine seeks to connect those objectives by stating the need to clearly define the desired End State when the fighting is
I dont think they can eliminate Hamas. they simply cannot continue to oppressive a captive population of millions without facing a resistance.
so it seems their goals have shifted towards relocating the population and taking over. necessarily that involves ethnic cleansing and genocide.
The problem is not that the US fails to think through the invasions. The problem is that the military is given impossible jobs. It is asked to fight colonial wars against the will of the locals.
It wasn't impossible for the CCP to do. It is only impossible for Western nations because our moral systems make it so. Whether you see this as a weakness or a strength is a matter of perspective I guess.
You could say the same thing for the various genocides undertaken by Turkey in recent history (still ongoing). No problems at all dealing with the locals (most of whom have moved thousands of miles away, at least the ones surviving)
Ironically, because the rest of the world understands the CCP and the 1 billion plus Han Chinese they represent doesn't give a single **** about outrage over treatment of the Xianjing Muslims they don't even bother to get outraged. They just pretend it never happened.
This is a point I think Microbet brought up (I could be wrong here), but most of the outrage and political maneuvering by the Muslim world/progressive left is exactly because they know it will have some effect they deem positive. It is very obvious there is no first principles at work.
I dont think they can eliminate Hamas. they simply cannot continue to oppressive a captive population of millions without facing a resistance.
so it seems their goals have shifted towards relocating the population and taking over. necessarily that involves ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Well, Western nations have had success occupying and rehabilitating more forward thinking peoples. But given the Palestinians Stone Age value system, I agree any future attempts would be as futile as the last 80 years. Which Israel and most of the Middle East already realizes, which is why they want nothing to do with the Palestinians**. It is only the "compassionate" West that still seems to genuinely think the Palestinians have any hope for rehabilitation, or keep talking about a "2 state solution."
**See Egypt. Up to 1967 the Gaza residents were basically Egyptian subjects. Now Egypt cant build the walls high or thick enough to keep themselves separated from them.
Well, Western nations have had success occupying and rehabilitating more forward thinking peoples. But given the Palestinians Stone Age value system, I agree any future attempts would be as futile as the last 80 years. Which Israel and most of the Middle East already realizes, which is why they want nothing to do with the Palestinians. It is only the "compassionate" West that still seems to genuinely think the Palestinians have any hope
their value system that wants to be free? seems like they have the same values as any other person.
Well, Western nations have had success occupying and rehabilitating more forward thinking peoples. But given the Palestinians Stone Age value system, I agree any future attempts would be as futile as the last 80 years. Which Israel and most of the Middle East already realizes, which is why they want nothing to do with the Palestinians. It is only the "compassionate" West that still seems to genuinely think the Palestinians have any hope
What are you referring to with rehabilitating? From what to what? And are you referring to all Palestinians or Hamas members? Do Palestinians have a value system that varies greatly from other Muslim populations? Could you please expand on what you mean a bit?
Thanks
What are you referring to with rehabilitating? From what to what? And are you referring to all Palestinians or Hamas members? Do Palestinians have a value system that varies greatly from other Muslim populations? Could you please expand on what you mean a bit?
Thanks
Well, obviously Japan and Germany are the most obvious examples of successful occupation and rehabilitation. I am trying to avoid making blatant statements about Muslims, which is what you seem to be asking for. It seems to me Bosnia and Herz. is an example where the international community was able to step in and help move things forward, with a population that was easier to work with.
I think it fairly obvious the Palestinians prioritize trying to violently reverse the results of a war they lost 80 yeas ago, as opposed to moving forward in any productive way. And despite the attention of the entire world for decades and uncounted billions of aid, the current hopeless situation is a result of this.
It is clear the Palestinians themselves are under an extreme amount of indoctrination and social pressure (along with counterproductive military aid), to give them the viewpoint that they have a holy mission to resist and overthrow the Yahood; and IMO the UN and greater Muslim world share much of the blame for providing this toxic environment.
their value system that wants to be free? seems like they have the same values as any other person.
Most people (or their ancestors) had to make rationale sacrifices in exchange for freedom. I am not arguing this was fair or not, just the reality. For example, the Mizrachi Jews who emigrated to Israel when they were genocided out of their homelands. The Palestinians refuse to do this. They are committed to undoing a war they lost 80 years ago despite being hopelessly outmatched, with no rationale way of achieving anything productive.
Best case scenario now is Palestinian Authority takes over Gaza as part of the Saudi negotiations. Occupation will be a mess, requiring way more troops than Israel is going to be able to place there.
I can assure you it won't be the PA. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, wants it to be the PA. Not Israel, not Hamas, not the Saudis or anyone else. If it was going to be the PA, you'd already know it.
What are you referring to with rehabilitating? From what to what? And are you referring to all Palestinians or Hamas members? Do Palestinians have a value system that varies greatly from other Muslim populations? Could you please expand on what you mean a bit?
Thanks
Everyone I respect speaking on it speaks about "deradicalization".
a great paper on it: https://www.ipinst.org/wp-content/upload...
Saudi Arabia (to an extent), Dubai, AbuDhabi and Bahrain are all examples of countries who deradicalized with purpose and really put effort and budget into it. The outcome is almost always prosperity.
We have to remember that the radical puppet master destabilizing and radicalizing the whole region is Iran. Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, there are a dozen such groups Irans funds and trains to radicalize and destablize the region. And it keeps it in the stone ages. The Saudis and others are totally ready to leave this stone age thinking in the past.
Iran and the rest of the Axis are something everyone needs to understand well. And you can criticize Israel and still understand how cancerous Iran is for the region and the world.
Mets, what do you think about American Jews who do not support Israel’s war? What would you say to them?
Define support war
I think most people including me would prefer peace
I think many that don't aren't as educated on the entire situation as they think they are.
Do you support Israel stopping the war without getting hostages back?
Do you support Israel withdrawing without hamas saying it won't happen again?
It's okay to be against Israel controlling the Gaza border as strictly as they do. It's okay to be against settlements in the West Bank and the policies there
But be against Israel trying to get their hostages back? Or against them trying to eliminate a group who's sole purpose is to eliminate them
I think everyone has the right to think what they want. Not sure what else you want me to stay. The overwhelming majority of American jews support Israel's right to defend itself.
Best case scenario now is Palestinian Authority takes over Gaza as part of the Saudi negotiations. Occupation will be a mess, requiring way more troops than Israel is going to be able to place there.
Saudis are unlikely to come to terms while Israel is occupying Gaza, but it pretty much needs to be occupied. No one wants Fatah there. No one is going to want to rebuild a place that is likely to get destroyed again.
It's going to be a mess.
Saudi should be able to occupy gaza for x years as part of the normalization agreement with Israel
Well, Western nations have had success occupying and rehabilitating more forward thinking peoples. But given the Palestinians Stone Age value system, I agree any future attempts would be as futile as the last 80 years. Which Israel and most of the Middle East already realizes, which is why they want nothing to do with the Palestinians**. It is only the "compassionate" West that still seems to genuinely think the Palestinians have any hop
And the Palestinians that emigrated to Jordan once tried to overthrow a king which is why they are still kept in refugee camps 80 years later in Jordan ..
Saudi should be able to occupy gaza for x years as part of the normalization agreement with Israel
Should be able is a bad term
Someone needs to oversee the new government for some time
Israel doing it would cause world outrage
So saudi should as a neutral partner. After saudi normalizes with Israel, it is in their interest to have a friendly gaza government that doesn't want to destroy their trading partner.
https://nypost.com/2024/01/15/news/chill...
What do you think. Would you kill the hostages
lol these are blatant lies.
the video is clearly asking the viewer to guess if they are still alive or not with the promise of a follow-up video to reveal their fate. its not asking if they should be killed. you can watch it here. fwiw, when I saw it earlier today I thought it was in bad taste.
and the follow up with the reveal is here
Spoiler
the 2 men died in Israeli airstrikes and the women is alive
i'm quite sure that the saudi princes are not going to interrupt their busy schedule of playing FIFA, racing supercars in the desert and defecating on prostitutes in order to get involved in that mess. and nor would i tbh
Should be able is a bad term
Someone needs to oversee the new government for some time
Israel doing it would cause world outrage
So saudi should as a neutral partner. After saudi normalizes with Israel, it is in their interest to have a friendly gaza government that doesn't want to destroy their trading partner.
LOL. So they can get their own soldiers/peacekeepers killed by the Palestinian resistance? Why in the world would they sign up for that, when they can just allow Israeli soldiers to get killed trying to do the same thing AND take the moral high ground in the Muslim world by condemning the occupation?
You would be asking them to exchange a Win/Win for a massive L.
i'm quite sure that the saudi princes are not going to interrupt their busy schedule of playing FIFA, racing supercars in the desert and defecating on prostitutes in order to get involved in that mess. and nor would i tbh
I dusagree
A normalization deal with Israel has huge financial and political benefits. A friendly Gaza does a well. It is in Saudis best interest to ensure the gaza government is an ally to both Israel and Saudi
i'm quite sure that the saudi princes are not going to interrupt their busy schedule of playing FIFA, racing supercars in the desert and defecating on prostitutes in order to get involved in that mess. and nor would i tbh
I disagree
A normalization deal with Israel has huge financial and political benefits. A friendly Gaza does a well. It is in Saudis best interest to ensure the gaza government is an ally to both Israel and Saudi
Given current events, I am not even sure how much the Saudi's care about normalizing relations with Israel. A lot has happened since the Abraham Accords. Currently, Saudi seems to be more interested in normalizing/expanding relations with Iran, Russia and China than Israel.
All I know is that when Putin visits Saudi he gets a rockstar welcome, and when Blinken did they made him wait a day just to put him in his place and show him who was boss.
i'm quite sure that the saudi princes are not going to interrupt their busy schedule of playing FIFA, racing supercars in the desert and defecating on prostitutes in order to get involved in that mess. and nor would i tbh
I don't know (and don't want to know) which tabloid most of your information comes from but an old schoolfriend's ex-best friend became a prostitute in Saudi and said they were extremely well treated there in terms of not being abused. It's countries like the UK where men tend to brutalise and kill prostitutes, serially sometimes.
Saudi should be able to occupy gaza for x years as part of the normalization agreement with Israel
What makes you think SA is interested in or capable of occupying Gaza? This sounds like a requirement that is designed to be an excuse for lack of change. Why does Israel keep occupying Gaza? Because Saudi Arabia won't. SA is interested in participating in talks and obviously a likely source of funds for anything, but not an occupying force.
Do you understand what it would mean for Saudi Arabia to occupy Gaza? It would mean them sending Pakistani and Bangladeshi contract soldiers under the direction of mostly US and UK contract soldiers. Not only will this never happen, it would be incredibly foolish to try.
American football is always best forgotten.
I'm not ready to give SA and their Madrasa's they've funded over the world, over the decades a pass because they let women drive now. They take a lot more blame in radicalization over the years than Iran.
Edit: this is in response to Rafiki's post but I guess I'm an hour late.
