Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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We've been over this.
The Israeli LEFT was in power for ages, and had as its main goal to solve this issue. This was the Rabin dream. They put together the best shot at it. The second Intifada was all it got them, and the Israeli left died in flames. And it died logically, the Israeli people felt completely taken advantage of. The goods they were sold were totally fraudulent as it relates to land for peace. THAT is what built the walls Micr
Rabin did not want a 2 state solution
Rabin did not want a 2 state solution
lol such a non article. Did you even read it?
"While he couldn’t say with certitude whether Rabin truly believed in the creation of a Palestinian state, Haber said at one point Monday that he was sure that Rabin was ready to agree to such a state toward the end of the five-year interim period. Confusingly, Haber added, however, “It’s possible that he would have agreed, or maybe not. They assassinated him because of things like that, so I can’t know. Perhaps you should ask the assassin.”
So after 5 years in the interim, he would have agreed to it. But what's more, Rabin's successors on the left wanted it.
Here is the only Rabin quote that matters
"Let the Palestinians run their affairs: create a situation in which no Israeli soldier will have to maintain public order, whether in Gaza or the West Bank. Let's give it to the Palestinians, as long as there is security for us. No more occupying another people."
In the end that's all people want. Security. If there was an actual path to security, someone would have found it by now.
https://www.972mag.com/yitzhak-rabin-nev...
its really not hard to find quotes from Rabin asserting that he did want a Palestinian state.
I dont think you understand the mentality of the people in Israel right now. over 80% support the bombing or want more bombing. they dont want peace and they dont want the Palestinians to be free.
A snapshot in the aftermath of October 7th is not fair and in the same way a poll about how Gazans feel about killing Israeli babies right now shouldn't be seen as something that makes peace impossible.
I doubt it.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pm-...
this Haaretz article is hilarious considering the author is trying to overcome these facts that he freely admits
Rabin did not want a 2 state solution
Interesting catch, and of course the main objective of Israeli policy is basically to prevent Palestinian statehood. The Israelis wish to be superior and not equal. And they have the military power to enforce that, and to gain the land they want, but they don't have the power to 'live in peace and security', ever, given their aggressive mission and their master-and-servant attitude to the other side.
There was a poll near the end of WW2 where something like 30% of Americans wanted all of Japan annihilated. They still hadn't forgotten Pearl Harbor and all the young men dead in the Pacific. I'll see if I can find the poll, heard it on a podcast 2 days ago actually.
After the biggest single day slaughter of Jews since the Shoah, it's going to be hard to find a total chill and measured response. People are still way to "in it", particularly with hostages including babies past 100 days in the tunnels.
https://www.972mag.com/yitzhak-rabin-nev...
its really not hard to find quotes from Rabin asserting that he did want a Palestinian state.
That's not really the point. He was actually moving relations between Israel and the PLO in a direction that the right-wing didn't want. If someone murdered Nixon for recognizing China or Ford for pulling out of Vietnam it wouldn't have implied that they were doves at heart or anything, but it could have been a setback. The point was not that Rabin was some kind of savior, it was that the peace process was killed.
A snapshot in the aftermath of October 7th is not fair and in the same way a poll about how Gazans feel about killing Israeli babies right now shouldn't be seen as something that makes peace impossible.
I doubt it.
was Leo di Caprio tricked into saying the N word on Django?
as for Israeli feelings, you can read their twitter. or twitter from their dissidents or as a certain member of your forum.
Interesting catch, and of course the main objective of Israeli policy is basically to prevent Palestinian statehood. The Israelis wish to be superior and not equal. And they have the military power to enforce that, and to gain the land they want, but they don't have the power to 'live in peace and security', ever, given their aggressive mission and their master-and-servant attitude to the other side.
Did you even read my reply which actually quotes the article, or probably no? lol
Rabin was basically murdered for trying to make peace
"He didn't want a 2 state solution " is so naive
Guys who takes over for Rabin and literally follows Rabin's footsteps? Peres. What did he say? Oh I dunno...
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/p....
"The peace process with the Palestinians has an agreed beginning and an agreed solution: two states for two nations," Shimon Peres, President of the State of Israel, told MEPs on Tuesday. "Peace can be achieved in a relatively short while," he said, pointing to the experience of European integration, which he called a miracle.
The formation of the new Israeli government "is an occasion to resume peace negotiations," President Peres said, insisting that "there is no other solution" but the two-state one.
History is already written bros. You can't unwrite what the Israeli left wanted before the 140 suicide bombs ruined it. Imagine you had an Israeli government literally begging to make it happen on the International stage, and you blew it.
I think there are many israelis who believe it is all their land and if they gave it up now after oct 7 then the terrorists win
Not sure how to overcome that mentality right now.
In Rabin's last speech to the Knesset in Sept. 1995, he said his objective was a Palestinian "entity which is less than a state."
they tell you who they are
In Rabin's last speech to the Knesset in Sept. 1995, he said his objective was a Palestinian "entity which is less than a state."
Read this, Bill
You might learn something
..
Even Peres, who was far more enthusiastic about the Oslo process than Rabin, did not endorse a Palestinian state during Rabin’s lifetime. Nor did he mention a Palestinian state in his memoirs, published two years after the Oslo breakthrough. He did so only in 1997, the year that Rabin and Peres’ Labor Party updated its platform to recognize the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination in a state of their own.
Rabin witnessed the price of the occupation firsthand as defense minister during the first intifada. Preserving Israel’s character as a Jewish and a democratic state was of paramount importance to him. In contrast to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s status quo policy of “managing” the conflict with the Palestinians, Rabin undoubtedly would have continued trying to resolve it.
It is difficult to imagine that he would disagree with the vast majority of other retired Israeli generals – as well as the former heads of the Mossad and Shin Bet intelligence service – who today argue that a Palestinian state, alongside the Jewish state, is a top national security interest for Israel.
Rabin paid the ultimate price for pursuing peace. Suggesting he would have abandoned this path is a disservice both to his legacy and to the country for which he sacrificed his life.
I read the whole thing yesterday. What is it you are getting all snotty about?
Edit add: There have always been elements in Israel who favored granting a state. But you didn't. Instead, settlements grew. There was never an offer to the PLO of a state.
Acting like rabin didn't want a 2 state solution is silly
He obviously did. He couldn't go balls deep right away or nobody would support him. But oslo was a great 1st step
It was too much for the far right unfortunately
But you coming in needingto show that rabin was against it. What's the point of that? I
lol thats the article I linked. its paywalled so you gotta use this linke
weird way to prove that he totally wanted to give Palestinians an independent state.
This is like the claim that JFK would have withdrawn from Vietnam. His partisans believe it, despite the dearth of direct quotes.
Bottom line: what was happening on the ground? Rabin is the father of Area C. As long as there is an Area C there is no Palestinian state.
Hagiographers like Guy Ziv need to prove more than that Rabin might have been resigned to some vaguely specified Palestinian state. They need to show he anticipated withdrawing settlers from Area C. There's no evidence for that.
Like those who romanticize the Kennedy Camelot, you are grasping at straws trying to find virtue in Israel's diplomacy with the Palestinians.
Kennedy sucked on FP, but it's still true that there were 20k US troops there when he was shot and 180k a year later.
