Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Dunyain won’t answer who is oppressing who rn. He can’t live in reality
1,500 years ago not a single person spoke Arab and not a single person practiced Islam. Now it is almost 100% of both. And genetically the Palestinians are mostly a mix of settlers from various Muslim conquests. Very much a settler colonial people.
But in the fever dream that is our reality the second to last group of settlers (out of a very long list) have rights to the land, at least in this case. The rules are pretty arbitrary; for e
everyone has a right to reparations and to live freely. ofc those people have a right to their land or compensation.
Early Zionism simply wasn't like Manifest Destiny. The organizers were socialists and atheists. They justified displacement of the Palestinians with theories of modernization and colonialism. Their justification was that Palestinians were primitives to be pushed aside by European modernization. There were religious members of the World Zionist Organization, but they weren't the main thrust.
Early Zionism (depending on where you want to bracket this) is a story of refugees.
There are 5ish different waves of Jewish refugees arriving in Israel throughout this story (depending on your timeline). And we're talking about refugees escaping some of the most vile persecution you can be submitted to (from Russia through Europe and North Africa, and Muslim countries they escaped from). That's the craziest part of all this. People don't realize that the story of Israel is simultaneously:
1) A great return
2) A story of millions of refugees seeking safe haven.
This is some of what I was going to touch on last week. We aspire as people to help settle refugees. Israel was one of THE great stories of this.
and now its going to be the story of genocide. Its already happening that the blue star of David is being viewed similiar to you know what.
everyone has a right to reparations and to live freely. ofc those people have a right to their land or compensation.
But not a single one of them will ever get a cent or any land back, and they are probably getting bombed this second. And the colonizers in this case are unanimously insistent Israeli Jews give their Arab Muslim brethren dispensation they themselves would never consider, not for a single millisecond.
How would you describe such a mindset? Seems to fit the textbook definition of settler colonialist oppression that good leftists such as yourself are ostensibly so concerned about. Yet in this case, no shits given. Very curious.
God's got little to do with it. Zionism arose among secular Jews responding to European antisemitism in the 1890s.
Religion obviously plays a major role in the conflict, but chalking the whole thing up to 2,000-year old religious beef obscures what's going on and dismisses a lot of the legitimate grievances both sides have. The Arab-Israeli conflict is also very much about power, land, water, revenge, self-determination, etc. etc. It's like saying The Troubles were all just a product of some angry German poster 600 years ago.
But the saudi deal will have provisions for a true Palestinian state. I can't be sure what it all look like. But i do believe it will happen. Truly.
Come on. You yourself virtually acknowledge that Area C won't be evacuated. So there is no land left for a state no matter what the Saudis do. It would just be 165 separate cantons. Add to the lack of contiguous land, we have the forthright statements by Israels top leaders that they won't allow a state. Face up to this. Israel has denied a Palestinian state. It's ugly occupation from here on in.
Maybe in 75 years international pressure will compel civil rights (citizenship) for the Palestinians. You've hitched yourself to an ugly occupation.
But not a single one of them will ever get a cent or any land back, and they are probably getting bombed this second. And the colonizers in this case are unanimously insistent Israeli Jews give their Arab Muslim brethren dispensation they themselves would never consider, not for a single millisecond.
How would you describe such a mindset? Seems to fit the textbook definition of settler colonialist oppression that good leftists such as yo
I dont know who you are talking about and who should get a cent back.
being a Jew in 2024 doesnt entitle someone to payment from the Italian govt for what the Romans did in 70 CE. nor for whatever happened in Spain during the Inquisition.
I do think their families should be compensated for what happened in Europe in the 30s and 40s.
and if they were kicked out of Morocco or whatever Islamic country in the 60s (which you routinely vaguely allude to but of which I am not familiar with the details) then yes ofc they should be compensated. but, and this is the important distinction, I dont understand why that has anything to do with the Palestinians. somebody did a bad thing to a Jewish person in 1970 and now you think they can steal and oppress the Palestinians? that does not follow.
I dunno, these numbers look a lot better than anything Israel has ever done
that is a high rate of civilian death, although certainly inline with modern wars but its important to note that many of the 695 were killed by Israeli tanks and missiles.
Come on. You yourself virtually acknowledge that Area C won't be evacuated. So there is no land left for a state no matter what the Saudis do. It would just be 165 separate cantons. Add to the lack of contiguous land, we have the forthright statements by Israels top leaders that they won't allow a state. Face up to this. Israel has denied a Palestinian state. It's ugly occupation from here on in.
Maybe in 75 years international pressure wi
You can't occupy your own land
I again refer you to the 1949 armistice agreement
As much as i like having him on ignore, I'm glad coordi quoted that
Victor doesn't think hamas are terrorists
Any of you who are "debating" him are silly
This is pretty cut and dry. They use kidnapping, murder, torture, bombings (some of the suicide variety), and general terror tactics to further their political agenda.
Hamas renounced suicide bombing in 2006 I believe and according to wiki only 1 or 2 can be attributed to them (both in 2008).
all of those other things can be attributed to Israel 10 fold. well probably more like 1000 fold or more. is Israel doing terrorism?
Come on. You yourself virtually acknowledge that Area C won't be evacuated. So there is no land left for a state no matter what the Saudis do. It would just be 165 separate cantons. Add to the lack of contiguous land, we have the forthright statements by Israels top leaders that they won't allow a state. Face up to this. Israel has denied a Palestinian state. It's ugly occupation from here on in.
Maybe in 75 years international pressure wi
I said they wouldn't give it All up, i didn't say they wouldn't give up any
Bethlehem is in area A. Ramalah is in area A. Those are the major cities in the West bank
East Jerusalem is much more if a sticking point than Area C
That agreement does not award the WB and Gaza to Israel.
I take it you believe everything from the river to the sea belongs to Israel?
It just said that actual borders in the region are defined by wars and treaties. And israel won the wars
I do think Israel has the right to own the land from river to sea that they won in wars,
but for the sake of peace i think they should give some up. And i don't like Israel treating the people on those lands poorly. So to keep israel an ethnostate, they should give up land and make peace
They should. But they are not obligated to
It just said that actual borders in the region are defined by wars and treaties. And israel won the wars
I do think Israel has the right to own the land from river to sea that they won in wars,
but for the sake of peace i think they should give some up. And i don't like Israel treating the people on those lands poorly. So to keep israel an ethnostate, they should give up land and make peace
They should. But they are not obligated to
Of course they are obligated to. Basic decency and UN Res 242.
" Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature."
I mean that sounds like Hamas to me (aka terrorism defined).
Hamas strikes military targets what...1% of the time? Maybe? In the Gaza incursion more. But outside of that it has to be 1% or less.
This is wild. Israeli bulldozers have desecrated 16 cemeteries in Gaza. It is systematic, as this well documented CNN report shows. Interestingly, they spared a cemetery that contains Jews and Christians killed in WWI.
