Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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No the question- your actual question- was whether or not Hamas is a terrorist group.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
You've now acknowledged they deliberately murdered civilians so glad we can both agree they're a terrorist group.
The Palestinian people dont accept Israel's right to exist. They dont really accept the right of Jews to exist. They dont even pretend otherwise. They even admit any 2 state solution would just be a prelude to total destruction of Israel.
From the day they are born Palestinians are radicalized to believe this. In Gaza almost every house has a map of "Palestine from the river to the sea" prominently displayed. Many have copies of Mein Kampf prominently displayed.
Any type of peace, 1 state, 2 state, etc. is a complete non starter given the position of the Palestinian people, from Hamas commanders all the way down to children being radicalized in UNRWA schools using your tax dollars that the entire point of their existence is to fight a Holy Jihad against the Yahood and destroy Israel.
Palestinian society would have to be radically de-radicalized before any thought of peace could be entertained. This is independent of anything Israel does.
The Palestinian people dont accept Israel's right to exist. They dont really accept the right of Jews to exist. They dont even pretend otherwise. They even admit any 2 state solution would just be a prelude to total destruction of Israel.
From the day they are born Palestinians are radicalized to believe this.
You have no way of knowing this.
Nevertheless it is true. The entire "2 state" Wesern position is willfully ignorant of the realities of Palestinian radicalization and desires. Even when they emphatically tell you who they are and what they believe, the Western world just plugs it ears and hears nothing.
https://nypost.com/2021/06/14/palestinia...
Most maps used in the books entirely erase the state of Israel, dubbing it a “Zionist occupation” and calling the entire region of Israel, Gaza Strip and the West Bank “Palestine,” the reports said.
I was referring to the Mein Kampf claim, you have no way of empirically knowing this is true, sorry.
In December 2022, support for a two-state solution was 33% among Palestinians, 34% among Israeli Jews, and 60% among Israeli Arabs. 82% of Israeli Jews and 75% of Palestinians believed that the other side would never accept the existence of their independent state.
I'm not denying radicalisation or anti Semitism, I'm specifically referring to the Mein Kampf in "almost every house in Gaza"claim.
The issue in this conflict is too many people don't understand the part where Muslim Arabs were humiliated by the Jews (in their eyes). There are excellent podcasts I can link to on this if anyone wants.
Think of all the conflicts that have happened with Islamic peoples where way more people died, got displaced, maimed, beaten, persecuted for religious beliefs, you name it. There are conflicts of scales exponential to this one. So why does this one stick?
The Arabs never for a second thought that Jews could beat them. Not in the late 1800's, not in the early 1900's, not in 1948, not in the wars that came after. It's inconceivable. The Jews were viewed as a weak vile money grubbing people. How could they ever fight and win?
If you know your Qu'ran you know that some of the foundations of the religion are that it's a conquering one. And history has proved them to be formidable conquerers worthy of respect and acknowledgement. You can read this on the conquering elements in the writings: https://content.ucpress.edu/chapters/102...
But frankly just basic understanding of history and geography are far better teachers. Look at at a map!
So here come the Jews. And make no mistake, the Jews absolutely humiliate them. And the writings and readings of the last 70 year speak to the humiliation of this defeat. Every new generation in Gaza or Southern Lebanon sees it as their sworn duty to undo the humiliation. To make it right. Heck the Houthis have it on their flag and look how far away they are from Israel! And you don't see that in the other mass conflicts regionally that killed big 6 figure civilians. The wound is not there. Arab on Arab doesn't create that endless humiliation which must be made right.
Normalization with countries like SA is basically that group of Muslims saying "we're over it". And it looks like Hamas didn't succeed, those relations will normalize. It may take 2 years longer than expected. But SA has already said this publicly in the last few weeks. And there is a long list of countries also ready to say "we're over it".
I think peace comes when the list of "we're over it" countries is so long that eventually, it just no longer makes sense to continue.
No the question- your actual question- was whether or not Hamas is a terrorist group.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
You've now acknowledged they deliberately murdered civilians so glad we can both agree they're a terrorist group.
USA and Israel are terrorist groups too then. its a meaningless term. my actual point ofc.
Not interested in your whataboutism, you asked how Hamas are a terrorist organisation and then admitted they are, via your acknowledgement that they wilfully murdered civilians, the end.
The flood gates opened when the Brits started sending Jewish refugees to Palestine during and after WWII. (Not particularly welcomed by the Jews that were sent there by the way)
The British didn't actually do that.
The British didn't actually do that.
I was just wrong then. I could have sworn the Brits started shipping Jews to Palestine during+post WWII.
Not interested in your whataboutism, you asked how Hamas are a terrorist organisation and then admitted they are, via your acknowledgement that they wilfully murdered civilians, the end.
well not quite, I just asked for the criteria
I understand that liberals are not very good on consistency but surely you can see why "willfully murdering civilians" as a criteria necessarily indicts well, every Western superpower.
well not quite, I just asked for the criteria
I understand that liberals are not very good on consistency but surely you can see why "willfully murdering civilians" as a criteria necessarily indicts well, every Western superpower.
Stop moving the goalposts vic, you were given the criteria and the diff between Hamas' murder spree and Israel bombing Gaza while Hamas use its poipulace as human shields was already pointed out to you a bunch of times over itt.
If you regard Israel and America as terrorist states due to civilian casualties over the years then surely you regard Hamas in the same vein?
Or is it different with Hamas because reasons? 😀
Meanwhile, Iran are a shade irate due to a spot of bother in Damascus
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-ea...
It's not my criteria bud.
But it's quite clear at this point that the scale of targeting civilians is a few orders of magnitude greater by the Israelis.
I'm not denying radicalisation or anti Semitism, I'm specifically referring to the Mein Kampf in "almost every house in Gaza"claim.
It is claimed by the IDF that one copy of the Arabic translation was found in one house.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/12/news/arabi...
It has long been claimed that the translation is a 'bestseller' in Palestinian territories, but without actual sales figures for such a long and boring book we don't really know. Since the book states that Arabs are an inferior race, one assumes that Arab buyers don't actually read the thing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/...
During the Suez crisis of 1956, Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir claimed that a copy had been found in an Egyptian soldier's knapsack, so this is a familiar Israeli propaganda meme. There is such a translation and presumably there are copies knocking about, mainly because of Arab hostility to Zionism, but it's not exactly a comfort read, in fact it's not exactly readable.
It is claimed by the IDF that one copy of the Arabic translation was found in one house.
https://nypost.com/2023/11/12/news/arabi...
It has long been claimed that the translation is a 'bestseller' in Palestinian territories, but without actual sales figures for such a long and boring book we don't really know. Since the book states that Arabs are an inferior race, one assumes t
I was aware of the IDF claim but find dunain's claim of it being in "almost every house in Gaza" a bit of a stretch.
Why would that be bigger
The West bank was part of Jordan in 1967. You had no issue with that? Of course not. The people were Jordanian citizens at that point. There was no path to a Palestinian state. Not sure they even wanted one then
When Israel won it in a defensive war ... then it became all about occupation
But you don't consider it an occupation by Jordan. Cause they ain't Jews
I see where you stand
57 is not an anti Semite or anything remotely approaching one.
Luckily we have good people like yourself telling it how it is, vic.
