Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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does anyone else remember when BGP came in here and whined about how it was just so so hard on the poor Israeli children to have to be safe in a bomb shelter while multibillion dollar star wars iron dome deflected missiles.
Busted. I believe that no children, even Jewish children, should not have to rush to bomb shelters to avoid being hit by rockets. The ones killed and injured by rockets were not "safe in a bomb shelter".
I posted about the emotional impact such events can have on a child, which would lead to them growing up with more extreme views towards not suffering through that trauma. Downplaying this is vile.
well you can also remember that I asked him why he made such a post while Palestinian children were being incinerated every few minutes. and beyond that, I asked what is the psychological problems that could arise from those lesser human animals? he ofc was not aware of that.
And you can also remember that I replied to this and explained that this was a discussion about why Israel progressively went further right. In the context of that discussion, the comparison was not which side suffered more casualties, but whether or not getting attacked repeatedly would cause people to want to stop being attacked repeatedly.
well someone actually looked into that!
he wont be looking into it anymore lol.
maybe this Hamas lover from a backwards culture should have just "moved on." well, I guess he did move on. with the help of the enlightened Israelis. Inshallah.
This is irrelevant to the discussion you were alluding to, but I don't doubt the findings. Yes Gazan children have suffered more in this conflict. I never denied that. Not discussing that in a discussion that does not benefit from discussing that does not show the bias you're trying to project onto me. Please quite inventing positions for me to take. If comprehending my arguments is beyond you then skip over my posts.
you came into a thread where 10s of thousands of kids have blown to bits and said that Palestinian rockets were causing the Israelis to move to the right due to PTSD.
ofc you didnt mention the PTSD of the Palestinians. you said it wasnt relevant to your argument.
Right.
and its not. bc in the minds of Western liberals, Palestinian lives dont matter. ask yourself how outraged you would be if the Israeli sources for your bullshit were killed by snipers?
anyway, this highly educated and smart man tried to help you understand something. he was a deeply stupid person bc did not understand the depth of the depravity of Westerners.
Wrong.
It has nothing to do with Palestinians vs Israelis, my view is that no children should suffer through what either side is forcing children to suffer through; I'm surprised that is a contentious point of view. Although what you're saying DOES suggest to you that whether or not Palestinian or Israeli children are killed really does matter. In fact if I mention the safety of Israeli kids I'm "whining".
Once again: I already understood what the article you pointed to said. Once again, that was not relevant to the discussion at hand, so it wasn't mentioned. Not mentioning something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
bruv, I straight up addressed this. Palestinians are not allowed to leave. like you understand that? they cant just get a passport and leave. even if they are dying of treatable cancer. or if they want to get an education and are accepted to Harvard Med school. they cant leave on their own volition.
like we are going in circles here.
It was not always the case that they were not allowed to leave. Do you really think that Israel wants them all there? That they wouldn't be happy for all the residents of Gaza to pack up and go?
Lol, I almost didn't notice that you changed the topic again to physical move. They could have had their own state years ago if they had been willing to give up the idea they should be allowed to return to the exact spot their grandfathers lived.
I know you won't agree with my previous statement, but nearly everyone else does.
if Gazans want to be safe, maybe they should just renounce Hamas and overthrow them and then hand deliver their heads with the alive hostages. if they dont do that then their babies and toddlers deserve to get decapitated and burned alive.
The second statement here is of course cruel and untrue.
The first statement is true, and would be even not accurate without the "maybe".
Do you believe there is nothing more honorable than dying for a noble cause?
Why should I feel sympathy for someone who says that after a lot of his family members have been killed?
Obviously he believes they lived their best lives by the way those lives were ended; he must be quite proud and happy for them.
Do you believe there is nothing more honorable than dying for a noble cause?
Why should I feel sympathy for someone who says that after a lot of his family members have been killed?
Obviously he believes they lived their best lives by the way those lives were ended; he must be quite proud and happy for them.
nobody is asking you to feel empathy or sympathy. just maybe a professor shouldnt bully a grieving student. but at this point we know that any Zionist behavior is accepted. and only Isreali grief is real.
So Maersk announced they are shutting down in the Red Sea.
Pretty wild that a country with no food and one of the highest birthrates and population growth in the world that relies completely on handouts from the international world is going to just majorly disrupt the world economy like this, without almost no pushback. But it is what it is I guess. Maybe civilization had its run, and it is just time to go back to the Stone Age.
Senior Hamas official Khaled Mashaal has dismissed the possibility of a two-state solution and said that his terror group’s devastating October 7 assault on Israel proved that liberating Palestine “from the river to the sea” is a realistic idea.
In an interview with Kuwaiti podcaster Ammar Taki last week, Mashaal, a former top leader of the terror group, said that there is “nearly a consensus” among Palestinians that they will not give up their rights to the land stretching “from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea” — that is, the West Bank, Gaza and all of Israel.
Mashaal noted that the slogan is also regularly chanted at rallies by “American students and in European capitals,” and said that the October 7 onslaught has “revived that dream.”
The Hamas bigwig categorically rejected the option of a political settlement with Israel and a two-state solution to the conflict, on the grounds that it would imply recognizing the legitimacy of the State of Israel, an “unacceptable” red line for the terror movement.
He further claimed that while Hamas has agreed to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in a bid to “establish common ground” in the context of reconciliation dialogue with other Palestinian factions over the years — most notably its historic rival Fatah — it will not relinquish its ambition to liberate the entirety of historic “Palestine,” including the territory of the State of Israel.
^^^What underlying point are you driving at? That Palestinians should not be given rights, either citizenship or a state?
^^^What underlying point are you driving at? That Palestinians should not be given rights, either citizenship or a state?
The point is that is not their aim. They aren't trying to establish a Palestinian state along with Israel or even gain citizenship in some hypothetical secular single state. This is a war of conquest in the name of Allah. Their aim is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state "from the river to the sea."
who cares what that dude says? he retired long ago
Hamas themselves actually put out release a few days ago. you can read their own words if you want.
https://www.ajnet.me/wp-content/uploads/...
heres a translation
there was a pdf translation floating around twitter but I cant find it now.
no guarantees any of this is accurate ofc.
^^^What underlying point are you driving at? That Palestinians should not be given rights, either citizenship or a state?
My point is how do you give a state to a group that
1) Doesn't want one (in a 2 state context)
2) Would only use one to take it all
How is that the bedrock for negotiations? It's the one starting point Israel can't have, and why they have to remove Hamas to be able to negotiate with the remaining people. What choice is there?
The other quotes from today coming from Hamas leadership is that Oct 7th and the aftermath has emboldened them to believe that "From the River to the Sea" is actually possible. Gaza is in ruins, and they're ENCOURAGED and emboldened. I mean godamn! Radical Islam is unlike anything. Truly.
Good news is that IDF looks like it's quickly mopping up the remaining two hospitals and UN relief shelter in Khan Yunis. Presumably wiping out Rafah is next.
^^^What underlying point are you driving at? That Palestinians should not be given rights, either citizenship or a state?
Since their govt believes that Israel should be destroyed and there is no 2 state solution, hamas needs to be destroyed
Then gaza can get a government that actually gives a **** sbout them and they can all have rights and hopefully a path to true statehood
But
Senior Hamas official Khaled Mashaal has dismissed the possibility of a two-state solution and said that his terror group’s devastating October 7 assault on Israel proved that liberating Palestine “from the river to the sea” is a realistic idea.
You can't expect Israel to allow Hamas to exist after that statement. Period
Which means Israel believes that Hamas should be destroyed and there is no two-state solution therefore...
After hanas is destroyed, or at least out of gaza , a new government can be formed. If that government recognizes Israel right to exist, the israel/Saudi deal can lay the framework for a 2 state solution
It's that simple
Your whataboutism is dumb as **** and you knew it
Since their govt believes that Israel should be destroyed and there is no 2 state solution, hamas needs to be destroyed
Then gaza can get a government that actually gives a **** sbout them and they can all have rights and hopefully a path to true statehood
But
You can't expect Israel to allow Hamas to exist after that statement. Period
that guy was never in the govt of Gaza and hasnt been in Hamas since 2017.
He will be out of power after the war
And/or Netanyahu needs the saudi deal and the deal will have a pathway to citizenship
And Netanyahu didn't say that's not what he wants
He made it clear that can't happen immediately. It cannot happe until their is a plan for Israel's security. And there will be at some point
He will be out of power after the war
And/or Netanyahu needs the saudi deal and the deal will have a pathway to citizenship
And Netanyahu didn't say that's not what he wants
He made it clear that can't happen immediately. It cannot happe until their is a plan for Israel's security. And there will be at some point
Mets, the guy who needs to war to stay in power is not ever wrapping the war up quickly and is going to invent reasons to prolong it, you have to be able to see this.
He will be out of power after the war
And/or Netanyahu needs the saudi deal and the deal will have a pathway to citizenship
And Netanyahu didn't say that's not what he wants
He made it clear that can't happen immediately. It cannot happe until their is a plan for Israel's security. And there will be at some point
I'm entirely okay with Israel doing whatever (within reason, like at least no glassing Gaza) it takes to remove Hamas.
Netanyahu isn't doing that. He's prolonging the war to look for an opening for his personal political survival. This is not the same as ensuring long term security for Israel. His failure (perhaps outright refusal?) to do some obvious things like getting aid to Palestinians, clamping down on Jewish morons in the West Bank, and punishing Israeli soldiers that stepped out of line are all indications that he's maneuvering for political support from the extreme right, not maneuvering to secure Israel.
I firmly believe Israel has the right to defend itself, inflicting tremendous collateral damage if it must.
But they still have the moral obligation to minimize collateral damage and alleviate the suffering of innocent civilians where it's possible to do so without jeopardizing the goal of removing Hamas.
I could think of many things that Israel can, and must, do but is not doing. On top of the list, for me, is IDF distributing aid directly to refugees, making them eat/use the aid in IDF guarded compounds/cafeterias if necessary.
Mets, the guy who needs to war to stay in power is not ever wrapping the war up quickly and is going to invent reasons to prolong it, you have to be able to see this.
There's a 2024 Israeli election coming Trolly. Everyone is already basically campaigning. This is one thing everyone over there agrees on.
Plus they have to pause the Gaza war for a bit for Biden anyway. Not sure about Lebanon, but they're not viewed the same as the Gazans (by the world). I think the blitz right now is to clear the deck for closer to the US election.
