Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Lol dude that's a creation myth. Rome was called Rome before the myth of Romulus was invented.
I fundamentally don't understand what you're talking about.
The Romans called the province Judea, taken from Judah, aka the Kingdom of Judah. That was a Hebrew speaking Kingdom exactly you know where. Jerusalem was the capital.
My main point is there's no reason for the Romans to call it Judea if not for the fact that it was literally the Kingdom of the Jews. They'd have called it something else.
People are focused on Israel because it's in the process of killing tens of thousands of people and it's been at the forefront of global news, not because everyone is an antisemite. This is just another cheap whattabout deflection.
If that was your criteria for your outrage efforts, then you're either
1) Lying
2) Unaware of all the other conflicts in those other countries earlier references where this has happened
If it's #2, then there are only 2 possible reasons for that: Willful ignorance, or unwilling.
Or you're lying.
I'm not sure which it is tbh. But that was the worst defence you could have given for your side. And long before Oct 7th, this was your take.
There is a very close political relationship between USA and Israel, so it is reasonable for US citizens to focus more on Israel than some other countries. I don’t doubt some people are motivated by straightforward anti-semitism as well.
But explain the rest of the world now...
You'd be hard pressed to find it different there (I can think of maybe 10 exceptions)
You're asking heavily antisemitic people in the US to create a Jewish state in their country. Why on Earth would they do that?
not its own state. utah, but with pais
and even if they team up with the fine folk of Derpleblubber Bluff they couldn't do worse than every one of Real Israel's neighbors, who have invaded like 5 times each since 1948
I fundamentally don't understand what you're talking about.
The Romans called the province Judea, taken from Judah, aka the Kingdom of Judah. That was a Hebrew speaking Kingdom exactly you know where. Jerusalem was the capital.
My main point is there's no reason for the Romans to call it Judea if not for the fact that it was literally the Kingdom of the Jews. They'd have called it something else.
I'm telling you that's wrong. It was called Judea because that was what people called it. Jews are called Jews because they lived in Judea. The religion is by no means central to the origin and settlement in the region. The religion formed thousands of years after the language culture and first permanent settlements and the concept of it as a region with distinct people.
If that was your criteria for your outrage efforts, then you're either
1) Lying
2) Unaware of all the other conflicts in those other countries earlier references where this has happened
If it's #2, then there are only 2 possible reasons for that: Willful ignorance, or unwilling.
Or you're lying.
I'm not sure which it is tbh. But that was the worst defence you could have given for your side.
Buddy, I don't see you posting about these other conflicts either, spare us the cheap whattabouts and flip accusations of Jew-hating.
Trolly I'll say what I think half the thread understands, but you don't understand about yourself:
You don't care about dead Arabs. You never have. And there's a collective regional history to prove it. You can deny that, but you'd be lying.
What you care about is dead Arab by WHITES. Americans, Israelis, etc. Arabs can kill themselves all they want, you won't lose a single second of sleep or make a sign. But the WHITES, that's just too much
What a completely psychotic post. Take a walk or something and come back.
https://nypost.com/2024/01/28/news/three...
Beginning to be hard for us to not get physically involved
Dude Judea is Yahuda, A Hebrew name lol.
Yehudah was a son of Jacob, he was eventually given the name "Israel" (and we get to the 12 tribes). They eventually form the Tribe of Judah, gets us to the Kingdom of Judah.
Not to derail this convo but most of these places in the Fertile Crescent had previous names, usually multiple previous names. Jerusalem predates the Israelites and wasn’t called Jerusalem. Israel was called Canaan. Genetically and archeologically, the Jews were likely a subset of indigenous Canaanites that renamed the land to Israel after successful conquest. To me, Bronze Age history isn’t super relevant to the conflict at hand.
My point is that If you have 15+ countries you feel are causing issues, but you obsessively focus on one (the Jew one), maybe it's a you issue.
Through the years on 2+2 I've repeatedly given the reason for focusing so much on Israel and you keep ignoring it.
Citizens are responsible for what their governments do. Americans are more responsible for what the U.S. does than for what Syria or Russia does. Presumably, our voice has some tiny impact on the political Weltanschauung.
The United State's diplomatic and military support enable the Israeli occupation. Israeli policy is our policy. So it is natural to speak with greater volume on what our proxy Israel does. Central to the criticism of Israel is the demand that Washington cease military and diplomatic support. So when I point out that Israel is assassinating journalists, the purpose is not to say Israel is worse than China or something. The point is to get Americans to stop supporting Israeli aggression.
There are other cases where U.S.--supported regimes have been criminal, and the left has been very vocal about it. I mentioned East Timor and the Western Sahara. Other governments the left has focused on include South Vietnam and 1980s El Salvador. There was far more protest against the Saigon and San Salvador regimes than against Israel.
Be careful what you wish for. If Israel were treated by the same standards as other countries you would be like Russia in the Ukraine. You want American antitank missiles flowing to the West Bank?
I fundamentally don't understand what you're talking about.
The Romans called the province Judea, taken from Judah, aka the Kingdom of Judah. That was a Hebrew speaking Kingdom exactly you know where. Jerusalem was the capital.
My main point is there's no reason for the Romans to call it Judea if not for the fact that it was literally the Kingdom of the Jews. They'd have called it something else.
Quick google search confirms basically
On the Northern Kingdom of Israel
The term Israel was in use to refer to the Northern Israelite Kingdom that existed roughly in the regions identified as “Samaria” and “Galilee” on non-contemporaneous Iudaea Province map at the bottom of the Answer. While archaeology is still hazy on the origin of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, its presence is well attested by Assyrian documents and steles. The earliest such reference was written by King Shalmaneser III in 852 B.C.E. on the Kurkh Stele, which identifies “Ahab the Israelite”. King Adad-nirari III mentions a number of countries in the Nimrod Slab Inscription from 796 B.C.E. where one of the places mentioned (between Sidon and Edom) was “Hu Omri” or the “Land of Omri”. This correlates with one of the more famous of the Kingdom of Israel’s monarchs in the 9th century B.C.E. That the “Land of Omri” refers to the Northern Kingdom of Israel is clarified in that King Sargon II, who conquered the city of Samaria in 722 B.C.E., the capital of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and says that “he took the House of Omri”.
The name is confirmed separately. The Mesha Stele, written in 840 B.C.E. by King Mesha of the Moabites. The stele specifically confirms that Omri was the King of a Kingdom called Israel and that Israel had conquered Moab for a period of time.
I am Mesha, son of Chemosh-gad, king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father reigned over Moab thirty years, and I have reigned after my father. And I have built this sanctuary for Chemosh in Karchah, a sanctuary of salvation, for he saved me from all aggressors, and made me look upon all mine enemies with contempt. Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions. His son succeeded him, and he also said, I will oppress Moab. In my days he said, Let us go, and I will see my desire upon him and his house, and Israel said, I shall destroy it for ever. Now Omri took the land of Madeba, and occupied it in his day, and in the days of his son, forty years.
Edition from James King (1878), based on translations by M. Ganneau and Dr. Ginsberg
On ‘Eber-Nahra | ܥܒܪ ܢܗܪܐ
After King Sargon II of Assyria conquered the territories of the Northern Kingdom of Israel in 722 B.C.E., it was his intent to erase the Israelite culture in the area as they had done to the Aramean and Phoenician cultures further north. Accordingly, the Assyrians included the lands of Israel into the larger Levant region territory of ‘Eber-Nahra (ܥܒܪ ܢܗܪܐ😉, which means “Over the River” in Aramaic, since the Levant Region was all on the west bank of the Euphrates River. The earliest clear use of this term is during the reign of the Assyrian King Essarhedon in the 670s C.E.
The term ‘Eber-Nahra was used by successive rulers of the Levant, including the Babylonians, Persians, and the Seleucid Greeks. However, the latter two withdrew significant parts of the southwest Levant from the province or satrap of ‘Eber-Nahra.
Note: ‘Eber-Nahra often rendered in English as “Eber-Nari” even though the “h” is aspirated.
On Judah and Yehud
Even though Israel was the name of the Northern Kingdom, the Southern Kingdom that was contemporaneous with it was called Yehudah (יהודה😉, rendered in English as Judah. Judah effectively resisted the attacks of Assyrian King Sennacherib, which culminated in the Siege of Jerusalem in 701 B.C.E. This allowed it to maintain its independence, but at a cost. The Southern Kingdom of Judah entered into vassalage to Assyrian King Essarhedon and provided soldiers during King Ashurbanipal’s successful conquest of Egypt.
When the Babylonians conquered the Kingdom of Judah under King Nebuchadnezzar, they termed the territory of the former kingdom of Judah as Yehud. The Persians subsequently named the region as Yehud Medinata (ܝܗܘܕ ܡܕܝܢܬܐ😉 which means “Province of Judeans/Jews” in Aramaic. They named the region in Aramaic because that was the lingua franca of the Levant at this point. As mentioned earlier, the territories of the former Northern Kingdom of Israel were still part of the lager ‘Eber-Nahra. Yehud Medinata was dissolved by the Seleucid Greeks who used ‘Eber-Nahra or the term Coele-Syria to refer to the whole Levant Region.
However, the Jew-Led Hasmonean Kingdom took the lands of the former Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah from the Seleucids in 140 B.C.E., but considered the region to be Judah as well.
On Iudaea
Accordingly, when the Hasmonean Kingdom became a Roman client-state, the Romans recognized the region as Iudaea, the Latinized equivalent of Judah. By 6 C.E., Iudaea was a province in the Roman Empire. The map at the bottom of this Answer shows the boundaries of Iudaea, which included the regions of Samaria, Idumea, and Peraea. There were a number of successive Jewish Wars against the Romans, culminating the Bar Kochba Revolt in 132–135 C.E. The Bar Kochba Revolt was particularly devastating to the Romans, leading them to lose many casualties. Roman Emperor Hadrian determined that when he defeated the Jews that he would remove all of the historical Jewish ties to the region.
This is like arguing about what pre-Colombian indigenous people called America before we renamed it. It’s not super relevant to the solution. You guys go for it though.
If Jews were moved to Idaho after WW2 most of them would have just moved to NYC or Los Angeles immediately unless they were going to be put in camps in Idaho. USA putting Jews in camps?
The history of cities in the region goes back more than 10000 years and human settlement there goes back at least 90000 years. Lol 701 B.C.E.
Israel's entire national purpose since 1967, and during the many years of planning before that, is to establish, expand and hold ethnically-defined settlements on the West Bank outside the legal borders of the state, maintained on a basis of apartheid.
Through the years on 2+2 I've repeatedly given the reason for focusing so much on Israel and you keep ignoring it.
Citizens are responsible for what their governments do. Americans are more responsible for what the U.S. does than for what Syria or Russia does. Presumably, our voice has some tiny impact on the political Weltanschauung.
The United State's diplomatic and military support enable the Israeli occupation. Israeli policy is our poli
I believe this if you link to me your well thought, well rehearsed posts against the brutality of Saudi Arabia government, another ally of america
Israel's entire national purpose since 1967, and during the many years of planning before that, is to establish, expand and hold ethnically-defined settlements on the West Bank outside the legal borders of the state, maintained on a basis of apartheid.
Borders are legal. Just as the West bank was annexef
Annexed by Jordan in 1950 and they gave it up
Yes a lot of the right wing governments have felt what you said but that wasn't the point of oslo 2 at all
Both sides need to want it
Over 20% of the israel population is arab
The one area fully under Palestinian control in the West Bank, area a, no Israelis are allowed
Which group allows the other and which doesn't?
Israel forbids Israelis from entering area a. It’s against Israeli law. So… they forbid themselves from going there technically. It’s literally on the sign you posted of the entrance. I assume the law applies to Arab Israelis as well.
Israel forbids Israelis from entering area a. It’s against Israeli law. So… you forbid yourselves from going there technically. It’s literally on the sign you posted of the entrance. I assume the law applies to Arab Israelis as well.
They forbid themselves. Mets is not Israeli and he is allowed to enter area A.
I believe this if you link to me your well thought, well rehearsed posts against the brutality of Saudi Arabia government, another ally of america
Over the years in this thread I've referred to the despotic nature of the House of Saud.
But here's the thing. There are no Saudi truthers here arguing the contrary. Find some truthers claiming the virtuous nature of SA and I'll start singing the praises of the murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi and talk about beheadings and not allowing women to drive, etc. I know a thing or two about Vietnam, Central America, and Korean wars also. I actually know more about them than the Mideast. But those will be very short conversations because no one defends them. Israel/Palestine is current and controversial. It has plenty of Israel truthers to argue with. Hence, one subject gets most of the vim and vigor.
Note also the inherent weakness of your argument. You are suggesting critics of Israel are antisemetic because they talk more about Israel than other places. But even if true, it in no way denies the genocidal facts of the current campaign. It's just a smear.
