Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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lol international court.
Hamas has said over and over and over again they want to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth.
That’s actual genocide, not your distorted version.
thats not genocide. saying you want to wipe someone off the face of the earth of is not genocide. also, they dont say they want to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, they say nothing like that.
excuse but the ICJ only adjudicates disputes between states, which is why it took in this case South Africa to bring the matter to the court.
not sure how that matters. the court agreed that SA has standing and put Israel on trial for genocide.
thats not genocide. saying you want to wipe someone off the face of the earth of is not genocide. also, they dont say they want to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, they say nothing like that.
Another absolute lie. They freely and openly have said just that.
I get you hate Jews but try to stop lying all the time.
Another absolute lie. They freely and openly have said just that.
I get you hate Jews but try to stop lying all the time.
They have said it. But they don't say that today and have not said that for years. They updated the infamous charter in 2017 and just last week reaffirmed that they have no problem with Jews.
Anyone ITT who says Israel doesn't have the right to exist is obviously crazy. Anyone who thinks Israel is going to completely rid Gaza of Hamas or even drive all Palestinians out of Gaza is equally crazy.
Only way this type of violence stops is if Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist and Israel agrees to a 2 state solution, and to complicate that even more Israel needs to agree that Hamas will play a key role in that government.
It's an extremely difficult thing to imagine, but I think it's the only way.
Anyone ITT who says Israel doesn't have the right to exist is obviously crazy. Anyone who thinks Israel is going to completely rid Gaza of Hamas or even drive all Palestinians out of Gaza is equally crazy.
Only way this type of violence stops is if Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist and Israel agrees to a 2 state solution, and to complicate that even more Israel needs to agree that Hamas will play a key role in that government.
There is no credible Palestinian acknowledgement of Israel’s right to exist with Hamas around.
Hamas needs to be disappeared.
The chances of Hamas being completely wiped out are pretty much 0 imo. Their popularity will improve because of this, and it already has. They're the most popular Palestinian entity. Their recruitment will be at an all time high after the violence inflicted on Gaza, and now that Israel is transitioning into this different phase they will begin recruiting. It's entirely possible they are stronger than before Oct 7 within a few years.
Hamas will need to be part of the government that forms.
Not to derail this convo but most of these places in the Fertile Crescent had previous names, usually multiple previous names. Jerusalem predates the Israelites and wasn’t called Jerusalem. Israel was called Canaan. Genetically and archeologically, the Jews were likely a subset of indigenous Canaanites that renamed the land to Israel after successful conquest. To me, Bronze Age history isn’t super relevant to the conflict at hand.
Of course. My point is the 12 tribes of Israel is about as relevant to this discussion as Zeus is to some hypothetical dispute over Mt Olympus or Crete.
Anyone ITT who says Israel doesn't have the right to exist is obviously crazy. Anyone who thinks Israel is going to completely rid Gaza of Hamas or even drive all Palestinians out of Gaza is equally crazy.
Only way this type of violence stops is if Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist and Israel agrees to a 2 state solution, and to complicate that even more Israel needs to agree that Hamas will play a key role in that government.
The chances of Hamas being completely wiped out are pretty much 0 imo. Their popularity will improve because of this, and it already has. They're the most popular Palestinian entity. Their recruitment will be at an all time high after the violence inflicted on Gaza, and now that Israel is transitioning into this different phase they will begin recruiting. It's entirely possible they are stronger than before Oct 7 within a few years.
Hamas wi
I agree with these posts. however, this is nothing new other than the scale. and Israel has been fine so long as they can contain the Gazans without conceding a state for decades. I am not sure that they will be willing to allow a 2 state solution. they would clearly rather have war and the miniscule amount of death and rockets so long as it maintains the status quo.
The chances of Hamas being completely wiped out are pretty much 0 imo. Their popularity will improve because of this, and it already has. They're the most popular Palestinian entity. Their recruitment will be at an all time high after the violence inflicted on Gaza, and now that Israel is transitioning into this different phase they will begin recruiting. It's entirely possible they are stronger than before Oct 7 within a few years.
Hamas wi
Then we are in for a long war until Hamas is dead as a military force.
And untold human suffering.
Anyone ITT who says Israel doesn't have the right to exist is obviously crazy. Anyone who thinks Israel is going to completely rid Gaza of Hamas or even drive all Palestinians out of Gaza is equally crazy.
Only way this type of violence stops is if Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist and Israel agrees to a 2 state solution, and to complicate that even more Israel needs to agree that Hamas will play a key role in that government.
No hamas will not be part of that government
The rest, yes
The chances of Hamas being completely wiped out are pretty much 0 imo. Their popularity will improve because of this, and it already has. They're the most popular Palestinian entity. Their recruitment will be at an all time high after the violence inflicted on Gaza, and now that Israel is transitioning into this different phase they will begin recruiting. It's entirely possible they are stronger than before Oct 7 within a few years.
Hamas wi
You are so wrong
Then we are in for a long war until Hamas is dead as a military force.
And untold human suffering.
Unfortunately i dont think this will be over for a while. Israel needing to show more restraint stretches it out
Hamas may not be gone, but they will be gone from gaza
Victor has been consistent in his opinions. Feel free to engage him and show which statements you believe are lies and why. Then other posters can participate as well. I suspect the end result will be no one on either side will change their mind and the discussion will fade out as people decide there is no point in continuing (a good result) or, out of new arguments they will result to personal attacks (bad result).
But the mods cannot play fact checker on every topic. And people are free to express their opinions within forum rules limits.
Previous campaigns similar to this have shown that unless you're Russia, this is the easy part; the occupation is difficult part. During the "easy part" IDF took out at best 1/3 of Hamas. The article I referenced earlier had an (admittedly extremely hypothetical) study that said that Israel would likely need 80k+ troops in Gaza to conduct a proper occupation. Even if that is off and it's closer to 40k troops, I don't think that's going to happen.
Hamas is at its current all time high in popularity, recruitment will outpace deaths. Saudi Arabia is not going to talk to Israel if they have troops occupying a Muslim entity with a spotlight as big as this. If Hamas is not part of the government then they are taking the part of thwarting any attempt at having a stable government. All roads lead to Hamas needing to be a part of the government.
Anyone taking the stance of "no Hamas" is taking the exact same line as "no state for Israel" except on the polar opposite of spectrum. Both sides need to begin meeting in the middle or nothing ever changes. This mean the situation probably never changes, but acknowledging what would need to change is an important step in actually enabling a possible solution.
Saudi Israel deal changes this
Israel will not be the occupying force (or at least not the only occupying force
You will see
Previous campaigns similar to this have shown that unless you're Russia, this is the easy part; the occupation is difficult part. The article I referenced earlier had an (admittedly extremely hypothetical) study that said that Israel would likely need 80k+ troops in Gaza to conduct a proper occupation. Even if that is off and it's closer to 40k troops, I don't think that's going to happen.
Hamas is at its current all time high in popularity,
I agree, and I've been arguing that for a long time. It does not disprove what I said, it strengthens the argument. PA, the most likely force to occupy, is extremely unpopular as well and not likely to have 80k occupiers either. They're going to be way less effective than IDF too. As soon as IDF pulls out of Gaza Hamas recruitment will surge and they will likely be bigger than before Oct 7.
Not allowing them in the government encourages them to use violence as a means of being heard.
i predict that the literal 12 year old children signing up to fight for hamas will shite themselves on first contact and go back to mum
I predict that campaigns to kill 12 year old children that are shitting themselves will be not be viewed positively, even if (especially if?) the 12 year olds are trying to destroy tanks, so the campaigns will stop, leading to most 12 year old children growing up to be extremely radicalized teenagers or adults who won't **** themselves.
It's grim.
I agree, and I've been arguing that for a long time. It does not disprove what I said, it strengthens the argument. PA, the most likely force to occupy, is extremely unpopular as well and not likely to have 80k occupiers either. They're going to be way less effective than IDF too. As soon as IDF pulls out of Gaza Hamas recruitment will surge and they will likely be bigger than before Oct 7.
Not allowing them in the government encourages them
they will always use violence as a means, no matter the name Hamas or Fatah or whatever, so long as the occupation remains. just like any human group in history has acted.
this whole "eradicate Hamas" thing doesnt even make sense anyway. the Nazis were not eradicated. nor the Japanese Imperialists. its all a smokescreen to do genocide.
I predict that campaigns to kill 12 year old children that are shitting themselves will be not be viewed positively, even if (especially if?) the 12 year olds are trying to destroy tanks, so the campaigns will stop, leading to most 12 year old children growing up to be extremely radicalized teenagers or adults who won't **** themselves.
It's grim.
it will be viewed positively by people like BOIDS as you can tell from his posts.
the nazis and imp japan were fully defeated, and having obseved the total nature of their defeat most of their remaining folks decided to give up rather than throw themselves off the cliff
hamas will be added to this list, just a matter of time
f hilarious to imagine they will be part of a government as long as israel has anything to say about it, come on son
the nazis and imp japan were fully defeated, and having obseved the total nature of their defeat most of their remaining folks decided to give up rather than throw themselves off the cliff
hamas will be added to this list, just a matter of time
f hilarious to imagine they will be part of a government as long as israel has anything to say about it, come on son
Gaza is very different from Germany and Japan.
I agree that the government of Israel probably won't allow it, which is a major part of the reason that this will continue on forever. I also think that Gaza will never acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, which is why this will continue on forever. Both those things need to happen for there to be any peace in this region.
I guess we'll need to wait and see if Hamas still exists in 5 years. I bet they will and they'll be larger than before Oct 7.
I also think that Gaza will never acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist,
this is like some game of thrones bend the knee ****. Hamas and Gaza has offered lengthy cease fires up to 10 years if Israel ends the occupation. why should it matter if it is de facto recognition vs whatever Israel wants? the end result is peace. Israel has never agreed to end the occupation under any circumstances.
That's completely false.
