Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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But even it is worth more your conclusion doesn't follow. Because if all the Palestinians don't die it doesn't mean that Israelis will. They could easily avoid death by leaving the country. Thus, for your equation to work you must say that an Israeli is morally right to kill an innocent Palestinian to avoid having to leave Israel. Which would mean that his life is not just worth more but worth A LOT more.
Don't feed the troll
It wasn’t a challenge. I’m asking where the line is for “acceptable” civilian death.
Victor might say none. Luciom might say all. Where’s the line? Who gets to draw it?
Israel has the overwhelming military advantage with the international community doing basically nothing to define the lines so it's Israel (Bibi and co) who decide and Mets and co will go along as they never want to see a 10/7 again. Similar to the US, 911, torture, gitmo, etc...
Time article on how negatively Israel is viewed around the world now:
saw Zone Of Interest today, i suggest both sides of this debate watch this movie.
its sad how people can get dehumanized so easily when they are different than you and you agree and follow on with the narrative
But even it is worth more your conclusion doesn't follow. Because if all the Palestinians don't die it doesn't mean that Israelis will. They could easily avoid death by leaving the country. Thus, for your equation to work you must say that an Israeli is morally right to kill an innocent Palestinian to avoid having to leave Israel. Which would mean that his life is not just worth more but worth A LOT more.
I am not sure I understand what you mean
Incite what? I just made clear what is in the minds of many but rarely made explicit: the asymmetrical value of human life in tradeoff considerations depending on which human life it is.
It's very very rare for human beings to actually value all human lives the same.
Incite what? I just made clear what is in the minds of many but rarely made explicit: the asymmetrical value of human life in tradeoff considerations depending on which human life it is.
It's very very rare for human beings to actually value all human lives the same.
More than rare; it may have never happened in human history.
Incite what? I just made clear what is in the minds of many but rarely made explicit: the asymmetrical value of human life in tradeoff considerations depending on which human life it is.
It's very very rare for human beings to actually value all human lives the same.
I doubt there are many people they are perfectly fine with killing 2mil Gazans to achieve Israeli security.
I doubt there are many people they are perfectly fine with killing 2mil Gazans to achieve Israeli security.
I doubt that as well but mostly because most people would presume a lot of gazans would leave well before that could happen.
Meanwhile we are at around 300k Iraqi civilians killed because the Iraq war, for "American security", with a much more tenuous link between killing those people and actually achieving American security, and a lot of people fine with it or even if they aren't very happy about the idea, not giving more consideration to it that they give to say an increase in the price of eggs or the presence of tampons in male bathrooms.
So are you sure Americans will give as much considerations to the lives of gazans as you think, in case the deaths of civilians escalates further?
We are at 20-30k civilian Palestinian (99%+ Gazan) deaths already.
Admittedly this was 2 months ago at around half those numbers of casualties, but two thirds of the Americans who answered said back then that Israel was either reacting appropriately or actually doing too little (if you have more updated polls pls tell me)
If you want to go back to gulf war pt.1 sanctions it's more like over 1mil Iraqis killed.
That's why I can't demonize Israel as much as I'd probably like to.
If you want to go back to gulf war pt.1 sanctions it's more like over 1mil Iraqis killed.
That's why I can't demonize Israel as much as I'd probably like to.
Well my point about the Iraq war was simply about how we actually have proof of a very widespread deep disregard for the value of foreign civilians lives, among the general american public, in actually revealed preferences.
It's not like the politicians promoting that war got punished in the public arena, like at all.
And that's even if a lot of people would candidly admit that war didn't further American security very much
Would be nice to learn from mistakes/history but I cannot cast too big a stone.
Hamas really does need to surrender for the sake of their people.
And I don't know many people they think Iraq did anything for American security. All it did was make Iran more influential in the region and gave is IS.
And I don't know many people they think Iraq did anything for American security. All it did was make Iran more influential in the region and gave is IS.
While "it was worth fighting" is not identical to "it increased american security", i think it can be considered a fair proxy, one third of americans still think it did.
And it's incredible given how clear to anyone, of any political tribe, it should be that perhaps outside the ousting of saddam himself (debatable), everything else done in the region was a disastrous mistake that squandered absurd amounts of american blood and treasure while achieving basically nothing for the country, and very probably actually increasing it's security risks.
And that's besides any consideration for the foreign human lives lost
Would be nice to learn from mistakes/history but I cannot cast too big a stone.
Hamas really does need to surrender for the sake of their people.
They need a third party negotiation with hamas leadership being allowed to flee in exile (if any country is willing to take them), because you can't really ask the hamas leadership for literal suicide (Israel has the death penalty for war crimes, genocide, and crimes against humanity), and with credible international assurance that israel won't displace palestinians and so on.
They need a third party negotiation with hamas leadership being allowed to flee in exile (if any country is willing to take them), because you can't really ask the hamas leadership for literal suicide (Israel has the death penalty for war crimes, genocide, and crimes against humanity), and with credible international assurance that israel won't displace palestinians and so on.
They can flee to qatar now if they wanted to imo
While "it was worth fighting" is not identical to "it increased american security", i think it can be considered a fair proxy, one third of americans still think it did.
And it's incredible given how clear to anyone, of any political tribe, it should be that perhaps outside the ousting of saddam himself (debatable), everything else done in the region was a disastrous mistake that squandered absurd amounts of american blood and treasure while
But it's 20 years later
They would at a minimum need credible reassurance about the wellbeing of the relatives they leave behind, and in general of what would happen in the gaza strip after they leave.
I don't think the parts can find such an agreement even if for some very lucky reason they ever agreed upon a third party trusted enough by both sides, but for sure they can't by themselves alone at this point.
Weren't you telling me a few days ago that they weren't allowing Palestinians to leave, even to countries other than Israel? Now they're trying to drive them out?
I am not sure what you are referring to. go ahead and quote the posts and I am sure the distinction will be clear. if not, I am always willing to elaborate!
It wasn’t a challenge. I’m asking where the line is for “acceptable” civilian death.
Victor might say none. Luciom might say all. Where’s the line? Who gets to draw it?
Mine wasn't a challenge either?
Israel doesnt care about Hamas. they care about driving the Palestinians out and stealing the land. they have made that abundantly clear.
"gonna need a cite on that extraordinary claim big boy"
And no, a few extreme far right ministers including ex-settlers is not "they". If you want to speak for Israel, speak for the majority.
Where there plans to put a toe in Gaza on October 6th?
