TPGK on montone board IP

Raising flop is pretty terrible.

I would just call flop, if you raise flop and a blank 2 turns I think you have to barrel at which point you're turning your TP2K into a bluff. V often has nothing here and is fairly polar imo to made flushes and nothing so I'd barrel turn smallish if I did raise flop which I would rather not do.

Just call flop in position. Don't raise.

When we raise flop, we need to barrel turn on a brick.

As played, fold river.

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I would raise to 80 pre, not that calling is a mistake (it's just me). You can def. flat unless there's habitual squeezers in the blinds.

Raising the flop is over playing/turning your hand into a bluff. I would just call and proceed with caution from there.

As played fold the river AINECIMHOBTJM.

Pre I 3bet often, but get the call. Flop is not a raise, but once you raise you should continue on the blank turn. River is a snap fold.

Let's say we 3B to $80 (4x) here, and V 4B's to $240 or $300. With the starting stack around $900, are we calling the raise, or folding?

I'm not taking a position or making an argument. For me 3B'ing here with KJs is going to be very read-dependent.

Against this V, as described, I'd think he's going to be over-folding to our 3B's, but if so, I think we need to fold to a 4B, and we're likely going to be behind if he flat calls, or at best, flipping.

Against a more aggro V, who is more likely to get out of line, I think our 3B might get more folds, but also more 4B-bluffs, putting us in a weird spot with a really low SPR and a hand that isn't all that strong, and where V's wider range incentivizes us to c-bet at a higher frequency when he just calls, whether our hand improves or not.

Either way, I wonder if 3B'ing here is a borderline spew, and if we aren't better just flat-calling and seeing a flop IP with a lower SPR.

I think either is fine. As you stated, it does depend on reads and how V sees us. In the right conditions, it's definitely not spew 😉

I'm folding to a 4bet depending on what the limper does and what we think of him. If he flats, it might be interesting to see a flop in position. Two callers should slow V down quite a bit.

The reason I prefer 3betting is because you set up ranges where if they call your 3bet whenever you make top pair or a flush it's generally going to be good because they 4bet the hands that dominate you and fold some better hands that would've dominated you and call w/ hands you will flip w/.

So yes I fold if they 4bet generally because most people don't have bluffs there.

Flop raise is very bad vs a good player

If you raise flop then checking turn is by far the best play.

If you bet turn after raising flop you are bluffing. There are zero worse hands that a good player would call flop and turn with unless you bet tiny which doesn't make any sense when you can just check

As played I'd probably call since the sizing doesn't make sense. He knows you're capped after turn x back and the high card changed. I really doubt he's betting this big with value

There's close to zero chance he's betting enough thin value with this size. The average player will have too many bluffs imo

Wait, so...we 3B to $80, V in EP raises to $240-$300, the MP caller double-flats, and...we're calling the 4B?

I mean...yeah, I get that V in EP probably isn't going to be c-betting the flop as often, at least not without a very strong hand, but what do we do when they both check to us and we've completely missed? I assume we're not calling if EP c-bets, or if he checks and MP bets.

Bluffing into two V's in a 4-bet pot, with K-high, seems ambitious, unless it works, of course. Calling a c-bet, even if we make a pair, seems like torching money. Checking back seems pretty face up, and would seem to invite V in EP to just make a delayed c-bet on turn with his entire range. If he doesn't bet, MP very likely might. Even if we turn a K or J - how good could we possibly be there, and how often?

Stay away from the games I play, m'lady. You may have too much gamble in you for my comfort.

What bluffs does V have in his range when he calls hero's flop raise? He most likely flopped a flush, or has an over-pair. His larger bet sizing could be an attempt to make it look like he's bluffing, to get value from hero's weaker hands that raised flop for protection against the draws.

Once hero checks back turn, he's basically giving up with those hands. How can hero call the river with just 2nd pair, 2nd kicker?

All his 1 diamond hands. Assuming hero isn't viewed as a super nit good players aren't folding Ad or Kd on the flop (KxQd also almost always continuing too but I don't think he bets this size with KQ) TTxd 99xd and 88xd all should be bluffed after hero x back turn.

Hero is saying he has show down value with the turn x. He isn't bluff raising flop and then giving up on the turn very often. His hand is basically face up

This is all assuming v is good like op said

If he's an abc nit then yeah fold but I doubt the thread would be made if v is abc super nit because the correct answer is obvious

You think he's raising pre in EP, c-betting into 2 opponents, calling hero's flop raise, and over-betting the river, with AKo, ATo, A5o, KQo, TT, 99, 88, and possibly some other KXo holdings?

Raising pre in EP with ATo, A5o, KQo, and most other KXo is pretty loose for a V described as not getting out of line too often.

We're losing to KQ, and we block AdKh. We're also losing to 88, which is a set.

Likewise, calling the flop raise and over-betting the river with TT/99 seems pretty wild, when those hands lose to any Jx or Qx, T9, and every low flush that finds a call.

How are any of those hands we beat more consistent with V's line here than all the AA/KK/QQ combos with a diamond, JJ, T9s, or AKdd / AQdd / ATdd / A5dd?

Definitely 3betting this preflop to 80-90. The flop raise is horrible. River probably just fold unless there is some tell on villain's sizing ore otherwise. Our hand is way to middling to be in our flop raising range anyways though.

Good players open ATo from utg for the most part. A5o is externally loose very few good players would open it utg

We don't need him to have a ton of bluffs and just the hands I listed being bluffed at 50% would be too much to be balanced.

The main reason tho is that he won't have enough value for this size. If he finds AA, KK, AQ and KQ all with a diamond it's still not enough value. He would need to be betting all of them without a diamond as well.

He may bet all those for value but he isn't choosing this size which is the point

I would over bluff this spot precisely because hero has no good hands other than QJ. So if he's a player trying to find enough bluffs (meaning in game thinking about what his bluffs need to be and then betting those) he will 99% have too many bluffs for this size

I have no idea what other hands make it here for hero but we need to call more hands than QJ vs a good player who bluffs a reasonable amount

ATo is fairly loose, but v could have it. 3 combos ATo with 1 diamond, 2 combos AdKx wince we block A K, 3 combos AxKd. So 9 combos. 16 value combos would make this a losing call. AKdd, AQdd, ATdd, A9dd, A8dd, A7dd, A6dd, A5dd, A4dd, KQdd, KTdd, K9dd, QTdd, T9dd, 76dd, 65dd. Also 3 combos of T9s which is a straight, 1 combo JJ, 3 combos 88, 3 combos QQ. And we don't know if villain opens ATo from EP, nor do we know if he would make this play with AxKd or only AdKx. So I don't know that it is really a profitable call even if we can give villain credit for bluffs.

I do not hate your flop raise, although I myself wouldn't do it. I may raise with aa (no diamonds) but not KJ.

What do you think your image is like to the villain? I think that's quite important.

Given how you described about him, I suspect he was either bluffing with a broken draw Adx, or get there with AQo (Ad).

Maybe I'm wrong, but a lot of in-game decisions seem to require some "what if" thinking.

If I win the lottery, I'll be playing a lot of high stakes poker.

I'd love to see you at the table, though I'd probably try not to clash in too many pots with you. Like I said, you may have too much gamble for my comfort.

Maybe I don't want to play with you -- if you are thinking out that many what ifs while making a decision at the table, you will be much too slow 😉

Kler -- what happened?

I folded and he mucked his hand, so never found out