Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
I'm not Jewish, but I always just kind of assumed it meant never again to the Jews. For example, I don't think they ever felt a unique obligation to prevent other genocides that have occurred since WWII in other places like Rwanda, Cambodia, etc.
Tbh it appears the same debate we are having happened among Wikipedia editors so I will admit it's less obvious that it was to me;
for me it was always a generalist, anti-all-state-sponsored-genocides, expression
Zionism is a nationalist movement, so it is obvious that their 'Never again' only applied to Jews. Which is fair enough given the history, and the limits of their interest and responsibility, but it is a little problematic when they deny the nationhood of their target group and claim the right to diminish that target group's population at will and by violence. Although apparently you can say what you like about Arabs in this forum because t
Which country labels "Arab" a race?
For some important perspective on the Never Again discussion, it’s worth reading Elie Wiesel’s famous speech where he said “ For the opposite of love, I have learned, is not hate but indifference.”
Well, there's the Israeli government.
"Why Won't Israel Recognize the Armenian...
Scholars, practitioners, journalists, activists and the general public are trying to map the different reasons and grievances framing Israel’s firm position: not to recognize the Armenian genocide.
Has this changed?
They believe they need Turkey not hating them for their own national security more than they need to formally acknowledge Turkey massacred a whole lot of Armenians back in the day.
They are pragmatists, which usually backfires when we discuss ideological purity.
They are also probably mistaken at this point about the specifics
For some important perspective on the Never Again discussion, it’s worth reading Elie Wiesel’s famous speech where he said “ For the opposite of love, I have learned, is not hate but indifference.”
Banality of evil vibes
From the article:
In Israel, there is a commitment to "never again," a watchword in Israeli society, politics, and diplomacy ever since the birth of the State of Israel. But it has been embraced in its particularist form: "never again" to Jewish vulnerability in the face of murderous antisemitism, rather than the "never again to anyone," the form in which it is widely understood in, for example, the liberal American Jewish community.
I don't know that there's any evidence to not support it either.
We had this discussion in this thread starting in post 8029 and I don't think it was clear that everyone understood this the same way.
duuuude that's not how this works.
If you say that lots of Jews support genocide, the onus is on you to do a heck of a job proving such an inflammatory and outrageous accusation. We don't have to do that job for you. That's your horrific assertion.
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/01/biden-i...
Biden issues executive order targeting Israeli settlers who attack Palestinians
This is the firehose of lies thing we spoke of.
There's a mass grave! (narrator: probably there isn't)
SO MANY JEWS down with genocide! (narrator: there really isn't nor is there evidence to support this)
And if you firehose this over and over and over.... the FBI is suddently telling people there's record antisemitism in 2023-2024. But it's to the point where I can hardly blame the antisemites. The firehose feeds them so much garbage that of course Jews seemed like horned devil monsters eating children's bones.
Guys even an IDF soldier with 50 kills to his name isn't (necessarily) down with genocide. I will let you contemplate that. I know a lot of dudes who killed 50 Germans. Not one was down with genocide.
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/01/biden-i...
Biden issues executive order targeting Israeli settlers who attack Palestinians
I am so down with whatever **** the settlers eat. I can't waaaaait for the day a bunch more get rehomed. That's our Missouri. Is problem.
Btw what pisses me off about a lot of the far right is they're the ultraorthodox, often. Well guess what, they don't fight. And the country doesn't love that. They want all this extreme stuff to happen, and then someone else has to go put on the uniform. So believe me, their views are fringe views to the average Israeli.
Agreed. The extremists on both sides are driving the conflict and they need to go.
The administration had considered including ultranationalist Ministers Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich on the list of sanctioned individuals, but it ultimately decided to leave them off for now and focus on those who perpetrated attacks, the U.S. officials said.
It's a nice warning shot. Hopefully it has the desired effect, any time these idiots open their mouths it's MTG level of stupidity.
duuuude that's not how this works.
If you say that lots of Jews support genocide, the onus is on you to do a heck of a job proving such an inflammatory and outrageous accusation. We don't have to do that job for you. That's your horrific assertion.
That's not what I said and I already clarified that. I'm pretty mad now and want to call you names.
Agreed. The extremists on both sides are driving the conflict and they need to go.
It's a nice warning shot. Hopefully it has the desired effect, any time these idiots open their mouths it's MTG level of stupidity.
Haha you don't know many Israelis 
The change will have to come from within. Problem is their birth rate.
That's not what I said and I already clarified that. I'm pretty mad now and want to call you names.
I think at least 3 of us understand your post the way I did. Worth contemplating where the fault might lie in the message received as it was.
But you can call me names man. I've heard them all by now 😃
I think at least 3 of us understand your post the way I did. Worth contemplating where the fault might lie in the message received as it was.
But you can call me names man. I've heard them all by now 😃
You're a moron. Lucien did not interpret it that way. He understood what I meant and then still accepted that he might be wrong. The moron mets didn't interpret anything I said, he just went along with what you said.
Ok, I take back the calling names. I'm a bit mad irl atm for unrelated reasons.
In Israel, there is a commitment to "never again," a watchword in Israeli society, politics, and diplomacy ever since the birth of the State of Israel. But it has been embraced in its particularist form: "never again" to Jewish vulnerability in the face of murderous antisemitism, rather than the "never again to anyone," the form in which it is widely understood in, for example, the liberal American Jewish community.
i think this is because 'never again' is a practical matter for israel. they keep getting invaded by their neighbors who want to do holocaust 2 ("murderous antisemitism"), so there are real life implications and practical steps which flow from the phrase
in the western community its mostly a thing said for the purposes of displaying moral rectitude (while sacrificing nothing and doing nothing)
i think this is because 'never again' is a practical matter for israel. they keep getting invaded by their neighbors who want to do holocaust 2 ("murderous antisemitism"), so there are real life implications and practical steps which flow from the phrase
in the western community its mostly a thing said for the purposes of displaying moral rectitude (while sacrificing nothing and doing nothing)
So I'm not sure why microbet would be offended if Israelis or any jews would mean it about themselves when they say it
That doesn't mean they condone a holocaust of other peoples
But obviously when they say never again they mean never again would they allow anyone to attempt to exterminate the Jews
