Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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What is Italy became a Muslim dominated country for 1,000 years and then some Italians from around the world came and took over the Vatican and returned catholism to be the dominate religion and made their own state. Would that simply be conquerers or recolonized or what?
You understand this is sort of what happened in Spain and Persia/Iran. The Muslim Arabs did A LOT of conquering and colonizing, and Israel is not the first colony lost.
What is Italy became a Muslim dominated country for 1,000 years and then some Italians from around the world came and took over the Vatican and returned catholism to be the dominate religion and made their own state. Would that simply be conquerers or recolonized or what?
Reconquista is what the Spanish called it.
In India they are actually making a big deal about tearing down some mosque and rebuilding some very important temple that was torn down when the Muslims conquered.
The Muslims historically have made a point of putting their mosques on top of the razed churches of people they conquered, and claiming the land as Islamic for all eternity. The Temple Mount is not an isolated incident.
In modern times this is happening a lot in England, where English churches are being bought and converted into mosques. Whether this qualifies as "conquering and colonizing" is a matter of perspective.
What is Italy became a Muslim dominated country for 1,000 years and then some Italians from around the world came and took over the Vatican and returned catholism to be the dominate religion and made their own state. Would that simply be conquerers or recolonized or what?
Chickens coming home to roost.
You understand this is sort of what happened in Spain and Persia/Iran. The Muslim Arabs did A LOT of conquering and colonizing, and Israel is not the first colony lost.
And Sicily.
and I mean we won Lepanto so they should be thankful they still exist as a recognizable cultural and ethnic group
Guess they'll have to grow weed
In India they are actually making a big deal about tearing down some mosque and rebuilding some very important temple that was torn down when the Muslims conquered.
The Muslims historically have made a point of putting their mosques on top of the razed churches of people they conquered, and claiming the land as Islamic for all eternity. The Temple Mount is not an isolated incident.
In modern times this is happening a lot in England, whe
That's actually quite unusual, and the 'churches' in question tend to be disused Victorian Methodist chapels of no great size, not actual Anglican churches. For instance:-
In India they are actually making a big deal about tearing down some mosque and rebuilding some very important temple that was torn down when the Muslims conquered.
The Muslims historically have made a point of putting their mosques on top of the razed churches of people they conquered, and claiming the land as Islamic for all eternity. The Temple Mount is not an isolated incident.
In modern times this is happening a lot in England, whe
It's been happening forever. A bunch of indigenous structures in the new world got torn down and their bricks used to build a church.
"They should be grateful we didn't massacre them all" is definitely the kind of thing you find yourself saying when you're on the right side of history.
yes.
they should be grateful we didn't behave like most human groups in human history (tbh they didn't as well when they took Jerusalem or southern Spain or Sicily: I am not claiming uniqueness).
in the vast majority of historical cases, winners genocide all males, and rape all women. that's the normal course of human history when groups have violent encounters:the loser gets genocided (male lineage)
Arabs in the 900 to 1400 epoch were actually among the most civilized and developed culture on the planet.
they actually saved a ton of western (Greek) culture and we were able to access it only because they saved manuscripts and/or we got their translations to Arab.
we got algebra from them, and a lot of roman/greek knowledge, which we would very probably have lost.
something happened from 1380 to 1440 (approx) that stalled Arab progress and pushed "western, white" (European) progress to thresholds never before seen for humanity.
then in the following centuries that something bore fruits and we became the best society to ever happen in human history by a very large margin.
it's complicated to unwrap those events exactly because in, say, 1250, an objective observer might have considered Arabs objectively better, and it would be hard to say they weren't
It's been happening forever. A bunch of indigenous structures in the new world got torn down and their bricks used to build a church.
nah churches were built with new, never seen before, technologies, which were actually absurd for commoners at the time, to the point they didn't even believe it was possible to build them the way it happened.
it often took centuries and what they built is still outstanding today and people pay a lot of money to come and visit those places.
for some reason they don't pay the same to visit rural mud huts
So they've offered Sinwar the Arafat deal. Exile (and his life), for the hostages.
I know he obviously can't and won't accept. It's been a trip watching these sides go at it each with these offers.
Gantz surging in the polls ahead of Bibi btw...
Who exactly is in control of Hamas and where do they live? Following thread, I'm under the impression they're billionaires in ivory towers and obviously nowhere near Gaza?
So who is harboring them? And why? ELI5...
I sort of don't understand how decimating every human being in Gaza removes Hamas from power. The wealthy elite keep their wealth no matter who dies, no? Why would they care?
Also, who's to say Hamas 2.0 does not come about? I think someone itt said "there is no Hitler 2.0" implying there won't be a Hamas 2.0, but I don't see that as some reassuring evidence...ISIS formed out of a void, no? What will come of the void soon to be left in Gaza?
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/02/09/...
Mr. Netanyahu said last month that Israel had destroyed two-thirds of Hamas’s fighting regiments. American officials say privately that their estimates are lower, and perhaps only a third of Hamas fighters have been killed. Before the war, estimates of Hamas’s fighting strength ranged from 20,000 to 25,000.
But American officials also emphasize that the United States has learned in war after war that counting the number of enemies killed in an insurgency or counterterrorism operation is a fool’s game. Operations that kill militants often radicalize others, swelling the ranks of enemy organizations. And U.S. officials say death counts of fighters do not give an indication of whether a government has addressed the core issues driving the war.
Who exactly is in control of Hamas and where do they live? Following thread, I'm under the impression they're billionaires in ivory towers and obviously nowhere near Gaza?
So who is harboring them? And why? ELI5...
I sort of don't understand how decimating every human being in Gaza removes Hamas from power. The wealthy elite keep their wealth no matter who dies, no? Why would they care?
Also, who's to say Hamas 2.0 does not come about? I think
Nobody, outside of ignorant cable news viewers, believed Saddam had nukes. There isn't such thing as a dirty bomb. Nobody cares about some mustard gas from WWI. Sadam was not even aligned with islamists, but was their mortal enemy.
But the war cost 5 to 7 trillion. Instead of being wasted on education, Healthcare or public infrastructure, it was largely transfered to transnational corporations, who then gave the politicians who voted for the war billions in contributions, speaking fees, do nothing jobs for them and their families, etc.
This is what the elites care about when it comes to foreign policy. Fomenting further conflict is generally a good thing.
Obviously they have other concerns too. Like if some weaker country uses it's own resources for hc, education, etc then it has to be destroyed. But it's never about like, eradicating Islamism. Islamism is mostly a positive from their pov.
See the post above. You think they were actually surprised to learn that murdering people's parents promotes radicalism? That's one of the reasons they do it.
Who exactly is in control of Hamas and where do they live? Following thread, I'm under the impression they're billionaires in ivory towers and obviously nowhere near Gaza?
So who is harboring them? And why?
Wikipedia can answer most of these questions as far as the specifics go. But generally, Hamas is supported by Arab/Muslim political elites in places like Iran, Turkey and Qatar because the Arab/Muslim people are very fundamentally religious, parochial and anti-semitic; so there is a lot of political capital to be gained by supporting religious oriented militias such as Hamas dedicated to fighting Jews.
It is actually a testament to how little Arab/Muslim political elites (and the Western left) care about the Palestinian people themselves that they support Hamas, given how disastrously their reign of power has been for their constituents.
At this point I suspect anyone who actually cares about the future of the Palestinian people (which may not be a very big list) secretly wishes that Israel achieves its end of removing Hamas as a regional power.
Along these lines, a cynic might wonder if Netanyahu's aim might not be to get rid of Hamas at all. Just severely weaken them militarily, while they keep control of Gaza. This would probably be a worst case scenario for the Palestinian people themselves. Being stuck with a ruling militia that sucks in the best of times, but is now wholly preoccupied with re-building their war-making capabilities, and plundering the Palestinian people themselves to do so.
This is what the elites care about when it comes to foreign policy. Fomenting further conflict is generally a good thing.
Obviously they have other concerns too. Like if some weaker country uses it's own resources for hc, education, etc then it has to be destroyed. But it's never about like, eradicating Islamism. Islamism is mostly a positive from their pov.
In my more cynical moments I actually wonder if the Western World's general hands off approach (or oftentimes support) of fundamentalist Islamism in the Middle East is a Machiavellian plot to make sure this part of the world never becomes a serious threat to Western global hegemony.
Although acts of terrorism such as 9/11 can be problematic, generally nations which go all in on Stone Age value systems are completely uncompetitive with advanced globalist, capitalist economies.
The correct lessons to draw from “there is no Hitler 2.0” may be destroy the enemy and prepare for a 20 year occupation while flooding the occupied territories with aid.
That’s the nation building framework that has worked.
It worked in Japan and is well on its way to succeeding in Kosovo too.
It’s what Israel, nay, rest of the world, has to do in Gaza.
The correct lessons to draw from “there is no Hitler 2.0” may be destroy the enemy and prepare for a 20 year occupation while flooding the occupied territories with aid.
That’s the nation building framework that has worked.
It worked in Japan and is well on its way to succeeding in Kosovo too.
It’s what Israel, nay, rest of the world, has to do in Gaza.
It wasn't nation building, it was nation RE-building after removing a national problem.
But the nation itself had reached fully civilized status before endogenously, you just had to let it do it again with help.
The only place where nation actual building worked (starting from absolutely dirty poverty with no history of previous success in the industrialized era) was south korea.
I am still wondering how that actually happened as it's kind of an unicum. But it anyway entailed letting the country stay under military secular dictatorship for decades while we spent a ton to help it anyway.
